# Why do other states follow Texas in what school books to buy when they rank 49th in SAT scores? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487 "2010-01-26T06:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/21 "2010-01-26T22:04:26Z")
> [@](#): > > it’s FREE as in FREEdom, comrades. If Podunk have their ideologies, let them have them. You can have them too, though - no national standards prohibit that either. The problem is that the Podunk HS graduates leave Podunk ASAP, and then are amazed that they can’t get a good job anywhere. Podunk is stagnant, and turns out substandard HS graduates. This affects the communities around Podunk, so it’s not something that the rest of the area can really ignore without consequences. I don’t think that there’s a basic right to be ignorant, nor is there a right to have the kids in your communities taught badly. Yeah, Podunkians are entitled to their own opinions…but they aren’t entitled to their own facts. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/22 "2010-01-26T22:09:41Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > As a silly example, 1st graders in Texas are expected to be able to use the numbers 1-99. 1st graders in most states are expected to use 1-100. May be a silly example, but that flabbergasts me. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/23 "2010-01-26T22:10:33Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > it’s FREE as in FREEdom, comrades. If Podunk have their ideologies, let them have them. You can have them too, though - no national standards prohibit that either. > > As far as where the competition comes from, I have already mentioned one possible source - foreign textbooks. The miniscule city-state of Singapore apparently manages to produce its own math textbooks (so can it be all that expensive, really?), and nothing is stopping Americans from using them. Perhaps developing textbooks in America wouldn’t cost much either if there were no fees to the environmental, bias and general scammer consultants to pay. And as **elmwood** has posted before about various members of his message board, people from some Asian countries are fabulous at rote memorization, but not so good at actually applying the material. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/24 "2010-01-26T22:33:09Z")
MsRobyn, people from Asian countries are fabulous at running American manufacturing out of business and buying up American national debt (the money spent on wars and on closing various “gaps”, educational and otherwise). So they must be doing SOMETHING right over there… Also, the impact of Asian textbooks on Asians and their impact on Americans are two separate issues. The difference in outcomes could be due not to the textbook wording but rather to the inherent cultural or genetic distinctions between the two groups. And whatever that difference may be, Asians are doing very well in any event, as noted above. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/25 "2010-01-26T22:40:41Z")
comrade Lynn\_Bodoni, who are you to tell to your fellow Americans what rights they do or do not have with respect to raising their kids? Just because you have contempt for people who disagree with you and call them bad names (ignorant and so forth), why do you think this permits you and your ideological comrades to push them and their institutions (like schools) around? Perhaps a more interesting question is, what makes you think that you will succeed doing so in the long term? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/26 "2010-01-26T23:00:29Z")
Moved from General Questions to Great Debates. \*\* Gfactor\*\* General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/27 "2010-01-27T00:21:55Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > comrade Lynn\_Bodoni, who are you to tell to your fellow Americans what rights they do or do not have with respect to raising their kids? Just because you have contempt for people who disagree with you and call them bad names (ignorant and so forth), why do you think this permits you and your ideological comrades to push them and their institutions (like schools) around? Perhaps a more interesting question is, what makes you think that you will succeed doing so in the long term? 🙂 As opposed to this evenhanded, no-connotations-implied posts you made above? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/28 "2010-01-27T00:28:33Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Wow. That must warm the cockles of those asinine Bible thumper’s hearts, to know that they are not just imposing their morality on people in their own state, but on the nation as a whole. This is a disgusting situation. :mad: I’d like to see some good evidence that it is the fundamentalist who are fucking up the education system in Texas. I had the good fortune of going to a rather wealthy school district in Texas and have long since come to the realization that it was way above the state average in performance. We had our brush with creationism in the class back in 1992-93 but the school board went against its inclusion in the science classes. Anyway, there could be a whole lot of other reasons why Texas is ranked 49th in SAT scores. A large population of non-English speakers, lack of school funding in many districts, a lack of parents or guardians who value education, etc., etc. I seriously doubt the selection of a textbook contributes greatly to Texas’ lack of SAT prowess. It’s fun to sit and laugh at the fundamentalist but I don’t think it does a whole lot to figure out what’s the problem in Texas. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/29 "2010-01-27T00:45:28Z")
In my country (England), in my day (70s, 80s), the curricula were set by the universities who had free reign to put in whatever they thought appropriate. Local education authorities - even individual schools - could pick and choose between universities. The universities also set and graded the exams (O levels and A levels) that determined who got into those universities. No government intervention required. It has all changed now, of course. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/30 "2010-01-27T00:50:24Z")
More evidence that we need to stop using Textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/31 "2010-01-27T01:33:44Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > For instance, as you may recall, American mathematicians periodically write collective “letters” to public authorities deploring the way the “progressives” teach math. . Linky? ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/32 "2010-01-27T02:05:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Linky? > **[A quarter century of US 'math wars' and political partisanship](http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/bshm.html)** Maybe “periodically” is an overstatement, this article mentions one major instance. Maybe the mathematicians got tired of writing… Anyway, quote: > [@](#): > > In October 1999, the US Department of Education released a report designating 10 mathematics programmes as ‘exemplary’ or ‘promising’. Several of the programmes on the list, including MathLand, had been sharply criticized by mathematicians and parents for much of the decade. The imprimatur of the US government carried by these controversial programmes threatened not only to undermine California’s new direction in mathematics education, it could marginalize criticisms of the NCTM aligned textbooks nationwide. > > Within a month of the release of the Education Department’s report, more than 200 university mathematicians added their names to an open letter to Secretary Riley calling upon him to withdraw those recommendations.[23] The list of signatories included seven Nobel laureates and winners of the Fields Medal, the highest international award in mathematics, as well as mathematics department chairs of many of the top universities in the US, and a few state and national education leaders. The open letter was published on 18 November 1999 as an ad in the Washington Post, paid for by the Packard Humanities Institute.[24] > > Within days the NCTM responded to the mathematicians’ open letter with its own letter to Secretary Riley in which the organization explicitly endorsed all of the ‘exemplary’ and ‘promising’ programmes.[25] Nevertheless, in the following years, the mathematicians’ letter continued to be a useful tool for parents opposed to NCTM aligned textbooks. Recognizing its utility, NCTM President Johnny Lott in January 2004 posted a denunciation of the open letter on the NCTM website, under the title, “Calling Out” the Stalkers of Mathematics Education, in which he wrote: … Long story short, these “California standards” were (at that particular moment in time) apparently closer to the sane “teach math to the kids” traditional approach than the progressive garbage peddled by the highly experienced, credentialed and salaried federal curriculum experts from the DoE. So a whole bunch of mathematics faculty declared their support for that and the folks from Washington DC followed the SOP by stonewalling them. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/33 "2010-01-27T03:57:33Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > MsRobyn, > > people from Asian countries are fabulous at running American manufacturing out of business and buying up American national debt (the money spent on wars and on closing various “gaps”, educational and otherwise). So they must be doing SOMETHING right over there… > > Also, the impact of Asian textbooks on Asians and their impact on Americans are two separate issues. The difference in outcomes could be due not to the textbook wording but rather to the inherent cultural or genetic distinctions between the two groups. And whatever that difference may be, Asians are doing very well in any event, as noted above. When I was in my last year of high school, one third of the class were students who came over from Hong Kong to get into university. Graduating from a local high school simplified the admission process, so there they were. They dominated the top scores in the class despite poor oral english. One kid wrote the Waterloo Chemistry competition and won a scholarship to Waterloo in Chmistry and a summer job in the chem lab there. He turned it down because he “didn’t like chemistry”. The combination of smarts and motivation were frightening to us lacksadaisical white kids. They had a pretty good education system over there. Also consider Korea, where they’ve gone from peasants in rubble to industrial power in less than two generations. Motivation, smarts, good education, and (strangely) a government that did some things right somehow. * * * The problem with education professionals… There is no money, glory or career in analyzing education and saying “yep, we done it good for the last 500 years…”. Of course education professionals are going to come up with “new math”, “whole word reading”, self-paced learning, and every other 180-degree different method. This is how you make your name and career. Whether the results work? Given the right sample of kids, statistics can be tortured in the right setting to show your method is better, even if it is not. “New math”, or at least “new” 40 years ago, was _ **the** _ classic educational fraud. We’re going to show kids a new way to think about math. It’ll be so confusing that mom and dad cannot help you with your homewok because they are uneducated ignoramuses and only us professionals can actually show you anything. That’s why we have these degrees… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/34 "2010-01-27T04:50:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > \*\*Why do other states follow Texas in what school books to buy when they rank 49th in SAT scores? \*\* Because Texas also ranks second in state population. Therefore as, you know, a public-school textbook market. Therefore it makes sense for the **publishers** (not the other states) to give Texas what it wants, or at least to keep anything Texas **doesn’t** want out of the textbooks. And it would probably be impractical – certainly more controversial than it would be worth – to produce state-tailored editions. Therefore everybody gets what Texas finds acceptable. By the same token, everybody gets what California finds acceptable. Anything offensive to **either** probably gets left out. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/35 "2010-01-27T05:05:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And it would probably be impractical – certainly more controversial than it would be worth – to produce state-tailored editions. did you miss the post upthread where some poster says that his job partly entails tweaking textbooks for state-specific requirements? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487/36 "2010-01-27T17:36:34Z")
If the problem actually existed, there would be a very simple solution in the form of vouchers. Let parents decide which private school to send their kids to and suddenly there wouldn’t be any school board with the power to write statewide standards. Needless to say, vouchers also bring a few other minor benefits, such as making kids smarter, saving money, etc… But in any case, the problem is imaginary, as several posters with firsthand experience have already pointed out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-other-states-follow-texas-in-what-school-books-to-buy-when-they-rank-49th-in-sat-scores/526487.md?page=1)