# Why do people call Islamic Civilization a Violent Civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521 "2007-01-26T03:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/41 "2007-01-26T18:23:39Z")
to answer your OP because most beople base their knowledge on what they see on CNN og FoxNews where they on a daily basis se muslims burning flag, shouting with their fists in the air in demostrations, burning tires, blowing up viecles in Iraq etc. - that US and European media have had more focus on that part of the world than 10-15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/42 "2007-01-26T18:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] In fact, Jews inhabited Palestine before the Arabs, and Jewish lands were taken by force by the Romans. Shimon bar Kokhbah was a Jew who, in 132 AD, declared himself the Messiah, and raised a force to remove the Romans, which he did very successfully, destroying an entire Roman legion in the war. He then established a Jewish state, named Israel, which lasted for three years. The Romans sent twelve full legions and annihilated every Jewish person they could round up, lining every highway in and out of the region with crucified Jews, and scattering the remainder to the winds. As a final insult, they decided to rename the place after the Jews’ greatest historical enemy, the Philistines. In Latin, this translates as “Terra Palestinia.” So, like it or not, the Jews do indeed have a valid historical claim to the region as a homeland. They were driven out by force. [/QUOTE] and may I ask who lived there before the jews ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/43 "2007-01-26T18:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=kelly5078] Re-read the OP: [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Why do \*\*people \*\* call Islamic Civilization a Violent Civilization? > [@](#): > > I believe that the title of the thread speaks for itself. Ok…I’ve done so. Whats your point? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/44 "2007-01-26T18:28:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In that post I was not responding to the OP but to msmith537, who asserted there have been enough violent actions by extremists “to discredit the notion that Islam is a “religion of peace”.” [/QUOTE] His post however was in the context of the OP’s question though…least thats how I read it. Apologies BG if I missed your point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/45 "2007-01-26T18:57:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The third paragraph does not follow from the first two. [/QUOTE] It doesn’t? The first two paragraphs, though badly written, establish historical Jewish presence (and even sovereignty) in Palestine. They also establish that the Jews were driven out by a conquering force. How does this not add up to a valid historical claim? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/46 "2007-01-26T18:59:55Z")
[QUOTE=Wildfire\*\*MM] and may I ask who lived there before the jews ? [/QUOTE] It was a broad mix of both Semitic and Nonsemitic people, of course. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/47 "2007-01-26T19:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] It was a broad mix of both Semitic and Nonsemitic people, of course. [/QUOTE] Nicknamed “the Canaanites”, though there were a host of other tribes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/48 "2007-01-26T19:23:44Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] It doesn’t? The first two paragraphs, though badly written, establish historical Jewish presence (and even sovereignty) in Palestine. They also establish that the Jews were driven out by a conquering force. How does this not add up to a valid historical claim? [/QUOTE] Certainly it’s a fact the Jews’ ancestors lived in Palestine and were driven out by force. How **does** that add up to a valid historical claim, i.e., to a right to possess the land **now?** Ancient wrongs can never be righted, because victims and perpetrators are long dead and nothing done to their descendants affects them. And “historical claims” overlap in every direction. If I could prove a given ethnic group was descended from the Canaanites conquered by Joshua, their “historical claim” would be valid, wouldn’t it? And believe me, we ain’t about to give this country back to the Indians. Or the Mexicans. Or the Spanish. Or the French. Or the British. The Palestinians, OTOH, have a better claim to land that was in their possession within living memory. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/49 "2007-01-26T19:32:11Z")
**BrainGlutton** , I agree with everything you said, up until the last sentence. The fact is that Jews and Arabs have all sorts of overlapping claims, both extant and historical. Both cultural identities are irreversibly tied up with that particular plot of land. It’s impossible to say which group has a better claim on the land. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/50 "2007-01-26T19:36:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Certainly it’s a fact the Jews’ ancestors lived in Palestine and were driven out by force. How **does** that add up to a valid historical claim, i.e., to a right to possess the land **now?** [/quote] It doesn’t. All that two-thousand-years-ago stuff is nice and romantic and all, but it’s not the basis of our “claim” - as if we even need a “claim.” Our very existance is justification enough. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ancient wrongs can never be righted, because victims and perpetrators are long dead and nothing done to their descendants affects them. And “historical claims” overlap in every direction. If I could prove a given ethnic group was descended from the Canaanites conquered by Joshua, their “historical claim” would be valid, wouldn’t it? [/quote] That would be the Jews, too. Historically speaking, conquering tribes usually “absorb” the locals. I personally am about as Canaanite as anyone. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And believe me, we ain’t about to give this country back to the Indians. Or the Mexicans. Or the Spanish. Or the French. Or the British. [/quote] Coincidentally, we ain’t about to give THIS country back to the Palestinians, either. > [@](#): > > The Palestinians, OTOH, have a better claim to land that was in their possession within living memory. Ancient wrongs can never be righted, because victims and perpetrators are long dead and nothing done to their descendants affects them. And “historical claims” overlap in every direction. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/51 "2007-01-26T19:40:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Certainly it’s a fact the Jews’ ancestors lived in Palestine and were driven out by force. How **does** that add up to a valid historical claim, i.e., to a right to possess the land **now?** Ancient wrongs can never be righted, because victims and perpetrators are long dead and nothing done to their descendants affects them. And “historical claims” overlap in every direction. If I could prove a given ethnic group was descended from the Canaanites conquered by Joshua, their “historical claim” would be valid, wouldn’t it? And believe me, we ain’t about to give this country back to the Indians. Or the Mexicans. Or the Spanish. Or the French. Or the British. The Palestinians, OTOH, have a better claim to land that was in their possession within living memory. [/QUOTE] So if the Jews hang on to the land for another century, they’ll have the same claim to it that the U.S. has to Arizona? ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/52 "2007-01-26T19:45:13Z")
Okay, **xtisme** , I’ll try again. > [@ITR Champion](#): > > Thinking on a large scale, I believe that Islamic civilization is one of the more peaceful of Earth’s major civilzations. There has been no Muslim invasion of a western country since the days of the Ottoman Empire. Although the headline asks why poeple call Islamic civilization violent, he almost immediately asserts that it is not. In other words, he is marshalling the argument that the claim is untrue, to which you object. I believe that if it’s good enough for the OP, it should be good enough for anybody. Moreover, it seems to me that if a claim is the subject of debate, certainly the truth or falsity of said claim cannot possibly be considered just an irrelevant detail. Why aren’t you taking umbrage that this thread has suddenly turned into another “do the Jews have a right to the goddamned holy land” crapwad, or have you seen that and wisely exited, as I am about to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/53 "2007-01-26T19:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Why aren’t you taking umbrage that this thread has suddenly turned into another “do the Jews have a right to the goddamned holy land” crapwad, or have you seen that and wisely exited, as I am about to do. Sorry, but the question is topical in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/54 "2007-01-26T19:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The Palestinians, OTOH, have a better claim to land that was in their possession within living memory. [/QUOTE] As long as the concept of “this is my land but not your land” exists, there will be conflict, because there will always be some other group that feels equally strongly that they are the rightful owners instead. The only solution I see is for no tribe, religion, anthropological or ethnic group to be given ownership solely for members of that group. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/55 "2007-01-26T23:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] You do realize I hope that during the French Revolution (as well as after), the French WERE considered quite violent. This was at the height of the whole head cutting off thingy. In fact, you might have heard of a little known Corsican artillary officer named Napoleon perhaps? Do some reading about the Napoleonic Wars to see how violent the French were regarded as in this period. You might be surprised. Or think of it this way…at THIS period, American’s are considered a ‘violent’ culture/civilization. I don’t particularly think of us as violent, but we are perceived by outsiders in that light. Its an insight into what the OP is asking for IMHO…if you think it through. -XT [/QUOTE] I guess a better way of putting it is that pretty much every civilization has been violent at some point in its history. But when you get into describing whole civilizations as inherently violent, it dehumanizes the individual people. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/56 "2007-01-27T00:24:12Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I guess a better way of putting it is that pretty much every civilization has been violent at some point in its history. But when you get into describing whole civilizations as inherently violent, it dehumanizes the individual people. [/QUOTE] Sure…I agree. I’m not saying I think Islam (as a collective) is either a violent religion or violent ‘civilization’ (thats another debate IMHO)…thats not what the OP asked. S/he asked why people THINK Islam is a violent religion/civilization. To me the answer is pretty obvious…they think so because most of what they are exposed too indicates it is…and because there IS a rather violent and combative minority of people who claim to represent Islam in a very vocal and visible way. As most of what people who are NOT Muslims are exposed too is this lunitic fringe, coupled with the more vocally violent and antagonistic, this is how they stereotype the entire collective. Much like some folks lump all American’s (or any other collective group) together into a stereotype and stamp ‘evil’ on it. When all you see comes from the news, and the news focus’s on the squeaking wheel, then the viewpoint is going to be on how the wheels all squeak. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/57 "2007-01-27T01:00:11Z")
I happen to have read the Koran, although I do not believe in any religion. In addition to being one of the most tedious and unreadable books ever written, it contains literally hundreds of verses calling for war, promising horrid punishments to those who refuse to believe, etc. The Skeptic’s Annotated Koran actually lists almost 500 examples of cruelty and violence in this book. See here for the citations[Annotated Koran.](http://http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html) There is not an ounce of logic or attempt at reasonable persuasion. The basic gist of the whole Koran is that you must believe what Mohammed tells you about Allah because Allah will roast your ass if you don’t. The most miraculous thing about the Koran is that it manages to be both incredibly violent and incredibly repititious and boring. At least the Bible has some interesting stories like Noah’s Ark and such. The Koran is like Mohammed yelling at you for about 10 hours straight, demanding that you follow his religion or else. I could go all evening transcribing verse after verse to prove my point, but here are a few taken from the Skeptic’s Annotated Koran: Don’t bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6 Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10 A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24 Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90 “Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire.” 2:81 If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85 Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They’d like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96 For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104 For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114 ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/58 "2007-01-27T03:12:40Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t have, say, the Pope and his church hierarchy egging on the faithful to violent acts, or calling for the deaths of writers because they pissed off the faithful with what they wrote. Well, in fact, the “saintly” Wojtyla and his nuncio were directly involved in the torture and murder of some thirty thousand Argentinians a few years back. [News Articles - FindArticles](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_n4_v57/ai_19582385/pg_1) The nuncio, Pio Laghi, was a personal friend (tennis partner, personally baptised the admirals kids, was seen visiting the Naval Mechanics School/main death camp) of Admiral Massera, who was commander of the torture center. [News Articles - FindArticles](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n32_v33/ai_19564185) Laghi wrote and published a sermon praising torture, kept “death lists” with at least six thousand names, and continually slobbered on the boots of the various thugs who had taken over the Argentine government by force. Wojtyla visited Argentina during the dictatorship, refused to meet with anyone who wasn’t part of the dictatorship, and later promoted Laghi to Cardinal. When a group of Argentine catholics, including a mother superior, several priests, and the rector of the oldest catholic university in Argentina tried to have Laghi indicted in Italy as a war criminal, Wojtyla and Ratzinger invoked a Mussolini-era law that gave cardinals diplomatic immunity, and tried to have the Argentines- mother superior and all- listed as undesirables and refused entry to Italy. [LANIC - LLILAS Benson Digital Collections and Content - LibGuides at University of Texas at Austin](http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/region/news/arc/lasnet/1995/0470.html) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/59 "2007-01-27T05:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Only if you accept their claim to represent the Muslim world. [/QUOTE] How large were the protests AGAINST the terrorists in the Islamic countries after any of the events I mentioned? Compare that to the protests against George W in his own country. I realize they don’t actually represent all of Islam any more than any sub-group can represent all of America. But when people see these horrific acts of terrorism by Muslims followed by parades of American flag burners screaming and firing their AKs in the air, is it any wonder people might get the wrong impression? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/60 "2007-01-27T08:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] In addition to being one of the most tedious and unreadable books ever written, it contains literally hundreds of verses calling for war, promising horrid punishments to those who refuse to believe, etc. [/QUOTE] Ever read the Bible? Babies’ heads dashed out. Injunctions to stone disobedient children to death. And again, there are one **billion** Muslims. It is completely ludicrous to characterize all Muslims by the actions of a small minority of them. And were you to judge me as a Christian based on the vicious and violent passages in the Bible, you’d be as wrong. > [@xtisme](#): > > can you name ANY civilization in any period of history that would meet your definition of ‘violent’? I think it’s a fallacy to generalize that way. I don’t accept ‘violent civilization’ (an oxymoron) as a valid construct. There are violent groups within nations, tribes, religions, etc. As I’ve said more than once, people use these sorts of false characterizations to justify their prejudices. That’s all it is. **msmith537** seems to feel that citing ten examples of terrorism justifies condemning all Muslims as violent people. It’s pointless to even try to deal with that sort of reasoning. **msmith537** might wish to count up the numbers of attacks the IRA conducted during their years of terror. Though I suppose that would only ‘prove’ that Catholics are a ‘violent civilization’. :rolleyes: Halfway through my degree in International Relations I became persuaded that courses in IR should be mandatory for high school students so that a little less ignorance about how nations have conducted their business over the years might disabuse people of these irrational prejudices. > [@msmith537](#): > > is it any wonder people might get the wrong impression? Well stupid me keeps hoping people will demand a much more rigorous level of ‘proof’ of any theory than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521.md?page=4)