# Why do people call Islamic Civilization a Violent Civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521 "2007-01-26T03:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/61 "2007-01-27T09:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Ever read the Bible? Babies’ heads dashed out. Injunctions to stone disobedient children to death. And again, there are one **billion** Muslims. It is completely ludicrous to characterize all Muslims by the actions of a small minority of them. And were you to judge me as a Christian based on the vicious and violent passages in the Bible, you’d be as wrong. [/QUOTE] If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/62 "2007-01-27T13:42:01Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death. [/QUOTE] That particular injunction is not in the Gospels, but rather in Deutoronomy 21:18-21. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/63 "2007-01-27T13:51:45Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death. [/QUOTE] Never mind Christ, let’s go to the head honcho, God, as portayed by his worshipper, David. [Psalms 137:9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405442) > [@](#): > > Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Also see [Cruelty in the Bible](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/64 "2007-01-27T14:00:26Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] The Kurds might disagree. Certainly those poor lads at Gallipoli would. Or the Greeks at Dumlupinar. He _was_ a military officer, afterall :). One with a highly paternalistic and mildly authoritarian streak, at that. Doesn’t remove his accomplishments and he was certainly “progressive” within certain parameters. But he wasn’t Gandhi. - Tamerlane [/QUOTE] Perhaps, and you’re certainly correct, he wasn’t Gandhi. Nor, however, was he a Bin Laden, or even a Saddam, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/65 "2007-01-27T14:33:46Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] I highly recommend the Sam Harris book, [The End of Faith](http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0393327655/sr=8-1/qid=1169832103/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4972400-9720639?ie=UTF8&s=books). Mr. Harris is talking about Islamic religion, not civilization, but I think it is difficult to separate them; indeed, that is his premise. Harris argues that religion is inherently violent, but some have mellowed over time and with sophistication. Christianity had evolved into a different animal since the Crusades, but Islam is now where Christianity was then. Except instead of spears and catapults, they now have nuclear weapons. Imagine what the Crusades would have been with tanks, bombers and helicopters. And the tolerence now present in most branches of Christianity and other, milder religions (cf. Buddhism), Islam teaches that non-believers must be executed and cannot be allowed to co-exist. Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out! To support his point, he includes 6 pages of short quotes from the Koran. If you thought the bible was violent, you should read these. No matter how much someone may say that Islam is a religion of peace, the primary source book for Islam seems to say otherwise. [/QUOTE] I just wanted to come in and say that but you did a good job. I’ll add more. Sam Harris’s thesis in regard to Muslims is that a world in which Muslims get along with the rest of the world is a world in which they have, like the Christians and Jews, learned to ignore most of their religious beliefs. He makes the case that most current Muslim nations have almost no ‘moderates’, or they’re having about as much effect as a moderate Christian during the publication of the _Malleus Maleficarum_. It’s not so much the suicide bombers by themselves that are the problem, the problem is the parties, celebration, and (where allowed) dancing that follow… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/66 "2007-01-27T22:24:42Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] No it isn’t. No more than ‘Israeli civilization’ or ‘Irish civilization’ [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] **msmith537** might wish to count up the numbers of attacks the IRA conducted during their years of terror. Though I suppose that would only ‘prove’ that Catholics are a ‘violent civilization’. [/QUOTE] Certainly no one would ever acuse a true Irishman of being violent [QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] **msmith537** seems to feel that citing ten examples of terrorism justifies condemning all Muslims as violent people. [/quote] That’s not what I said. The examples I gave, however, do discredit any statement that Islamic civilization (whatever that means) is inherently non-violent. The OP has created a stupid straw-man and predictably, the thread has deteriorated into a battle of “so-and-so civilization is more violent!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/67 "2007-01-27T22:31:32Z")
FWIW, political scientist [Samuel Huntington](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations) believes there **is** an “Islamic Civilization” (and an “Orthodox Civilization” too; and a “Latin American Civilization” which is separate and distinct from the “Western Civilization” that includes the U.S. and Western Europe). ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/68 "2007-01-28T20:30:53Z")
[Yemeni Jews flee Islamist threat](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6307745.stm) A tiny Jewish remnant is still “too many Jews” for many Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/69 "2007-01-28T21:34:56Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] He makes the case that most current Muslim nations have almost no ‘moderates’, or they’re having about as much effect as a moderate Christian during the publication of the _Malleus Maleficarum_. It’s not so much the suicide bombers by themselves that are the problem, the problem is the parties, celebration, and (where allowed) dancing that follow… [/QUOTE] Remember, just because a nation has Muslims in it, or even a majority of Muslims, does not mean that Islam is the state relgion. > [@msmith537](#): > > The examples I gave, however, do discredit any statement that Islamic civilization (whatever that means) is inherently non-violent. No they don’t actually. Cite please, how ‘Islamic civilizaton’ was responsible for those events. Small groups of people from nations with Islamic majorities may have been involved. That no more makes ‘Islamic civilization’ responsible than the existence of 128 [American Serial Killers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_serial_killers) means that America is a ‘serial killer civilization’. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/70 "2007-01-28T23:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] No they don’t actually. Cite please, how ‘Islamic civilizaton’ was responsible for those events. Small groups of people from nations with Islamic majorities may have been involved. That no more makes ‘Islamic civilization’ responsible than the existence of 128 [American Serial Killers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_serial_killers) means that America is a ‘serial killer civilization’. [/QUOTE] Serial killers are mentally disturbed loners who are out to fullfill some sick personal fantasy. All the terrorists attacks I mentioned were carried out by organized groups. These groups were often DIRECTLY supported by Islamic states and had the support of their countrymen and women. These groups seem to have no trouble recruiting from a pool of willing participants. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/71 "2007-01-28T23:07:47Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] These groups were often DIRECTLY supported by Islamic states [/QUOTE] Cite, please. Also explain how being supported by _some_ Islamic states (bearing in mind that the action of a state administration does not necessarily reflect the wishes/ideals of its populace, to wit; GWB) means _all_ of Islam is ‘a violent civilization’. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/72 "2007-01-29T07:04:30Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] That particular injunction is not in the Gospels, but rather in Deutoronomy 21:18-21. - Tamerlane [/QUOTE] Exactly. Christians are taught to follw the teachings of the Gospels, not Deuteronomy. We’re in agreement. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/73 "2007-01-29T07:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Christians are taught to follw the teachings of the Gospels, not Deuteronomy. [/QUOTE] Oh really? Great, then. No more homo-hating then since all that comes from Leviticus and St. Paul, neither of which are part of the Gospels. Well this is indeed tremendous news. :rolleyes: Fundies trot out the entire Bible to back up their claims that they ‘follow god’ (and to beat ‘sinners’ over the head with. Just one example - Ten Commandments: not in the Gospels. Big chunks of that Bible advocate violence and intolerance. You’re not going to tell me that ‘Bible study’ is only a study of the Gospels. Nor are you going to tell me that only the Gospel is read in the churches of numerous christian sects. So, sorry, but no point made here. The christian holy book isn’t better than, superior than, less violent than (etc etc) that of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/74 "2007-01-29T08:10:24Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] You’re not going to tell me that ‘Bible study’ is only a study of the Gospels. Nor are you going to tell me that only the Gospel is read in the churches of numerous christian sects. So, sorry, but no point made here. The christian holy book isn’t better than, superior than, less violent than (etc etc) that of Islam. [/QUOTE] Actually what little religious teaching I went through hardly touched upon the OT. It was almost exclusively the NT. As for comparing the OT, NT and the Koran simply to count the number of nasty bits, that’s something you’ll need to do for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/75 "2007-01-29T09:28:07Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And believe me, we ain’t about to give this country back to the Indians. Or the Mexicans. Or the Spanish. Or the French. Or the British. [/QUOTE] All of whom took it from someone else…yes, no? Why do you hate America, **BrainGlutton**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/76 "2007-01-29T09:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Fundies trot out the entire Bible to back up their claims that they ‘follow god’ (and to beat ‘sinners’ over the head with. [/QUOTE] Ahem…to throw your own logic back at you: there are millions upon millions of “fundies” out there, the great majority of whom do no Bible-trotting and/or beating sinners over the head. If there is no such thing as a violent society unless all its members are violent (ala your posts earlier in this thread), then there’s no such thing as Christians (or fundies, as you so lemmingly put it) as a whole trotting out Bibles and beating sinners over the head with it. You can’t have it both ways, you know. (Ain’t it funny how the bigotry one condemns in others when aimed at a favored target (Muslims in this case) suddenly becomes acceptable when it’s aimed at the accuser’s own reviled target (Christians in this case). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/77 "2007-01-29T09:44:42Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] So if the Jews hang on to the land for another century, they’ll have the same claim to it that the U.S. has to Arizona? [/QUOTE] For me they already have that solid a claim on the land within the pre 6 day war borders. But not one inch of anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/78 "2007-01-29T09:55:36Z")
I must apologize to my esteemed SDMB colleague, **Quiddity Glomfuster** , for the ‘lemmingly’ remark. I realized my mistake (i.e., this is not the Pit) somewhat belatedly and even though the Edit button was still visible, my attempt to edit it out was disallowed as the time limit was up. I do apologize for my faux pas. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/79 "2007-01-29T10:57:33Z")
> [@Quiddity Glomfuster](#): > > No they don’t actually. Cite please, how ‘Islamic civilizaton’ was responsible for those events. Small groups of people from nations with Islamic majorities may have been involved. That no more makes ‘Islamic civilization’ responsible than the existence of 128 American Serial Killers means that America is a ‘serial killer civilization’. The shocking fact is, however, that suicide bombings receive widespread support in the Islamic world (where they are commonly called ‘Sacred Explosions’). If the American people supported the actions of serial killers to the extent to which so very many Muslims appear to support the actions of the terrorists born and bred within their midst, I’d say you would have excellent cause to label America a ‘serial killer civilisation’. I am well aware that this is a controversial statement, in need of strong corroboration. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) polling has been done on this very issue. The results are not encouraging. In 2002 over 38,000 people participated in a global study conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. The results constituted the first publication of its Global Attitudes Project entitled ‘What the World Thinks in 2002’. The study included the following question, posed only to Muslims. > [@](#): > > Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified? Note the juxtaposition of the phrases _“Suicide Bombing”_ and _“Civilian Targets”_. We now live in a world where Muslim’s have been scientifically polled, with margins of error between 2 and 4 percent, on the question of whether or not they support (Often, Sometimes, Rarely, or Never) the deliberate murder and maiming of civilian men, women, children, and babies. I’ve tabulated the results below. SUICIDE BOMBING IN DEFENCE OF ISLAM Is it ever justified? ```auto Often / Sometimes / Rarely / Never / Don't Know or Refused Lebanon 48% 25% 9% 12% 6% Ivory Coast 25% 31% 17% 27% Nigeria 21% 26% 19% 26% 8% Pakistan 19% 14% 5% 38% 23% Jordan 15% 28% 22% 26% 8% Bangladesh 18% 26% 14% 23% 19% Senegal 13% 15% 19% 50% 3% Mali 9% 23% 22% 35% 11% Uganda 7% 22% 11% 52% 8% Ghana 5% 25% 14% 43% 12% Indonesia 5% 22% 16% 54% 3% Tanzania 4% 14% 14% 56% 12% Turkey 4% 9% 7% 64% 14% Uzbekistan 1% 6% 6% 78% 9% ``` These are appalling numbers. Even if every country had answered 1% rarely justified and 99% never justified we would still have a problem worth worrying about, as we would still be talking about over a million avowed supporters of terrorism. As it is, we are talking about _hundreds_ of _millions_ of avowed supporters of terrorism. Consider, also, that Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian Territories were not included in the poll. If they had been it’s safe to say that Lebanon would have lost their position at the top of this ignominious list several times over. Islamic Civilisation is a nebulous, indefinable term. However if current public opinion in the Arab world comprises any part of it, then the case can be made that the events **msmith57** listed are, to an extent, the fruits of Islamic Civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521/80 "2007-01-29T11:25:48Z")
Oops, forgot the cite. [The Pew Poll](http://people-press.org/reports/questionnaires/165.pdf) (warning: PDF). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-call-islamic-civilization-a-violent-civilization/389521.md?page=5)