[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Ever read the Bible? Babies’ heads dashed out. Injunctions to stone disobedient children to death. And again, there are one billion Muslims. It is completely ludicrous to characterize all Muslims by the actions of a small minority of them. And were you to judge me as a Christian based on the vicious and violent passages in the Bible, you’d be as wrong.
[/QUOTE]
If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death.
[QUOTE=Aquila Be]
If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death.
[/QUOTE]
That particular injunction is not in the Gospels, but rather in Deutoronomy 21:18-21.
[QUOTE=Aquila Be]
If, as you claim, you were raised as a Christian, perhaps you could identify for us those parts of the the Gospels where Christ advocated stoning disobedient children to death.
[/QUOTE]
Never mind Christ, let’s go to the head honcho, God, as portayed by his worshipper, David. Psalms 137:9
[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
The Kurds might disagree. Certainly those poor lads at Gallipoli would. Or the Greeks at Dumlupinar. He was a military officer, afterall :). One with a highly paternalistic and mildly authoritarian streak, at that. Doesn’t remove his accomplishments and he was certainly “progressive” within certain parameters. But he wasn’t Gandhi.
Tamerlane
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Perhaps, and you’re certainly correct, he wasn’t Gandhi. Nor, however, was he a Bin Laden, or even a Saddam, if you will.
[QUOTE=Musicat]
I highly recommend the Sam Harris book, The End of Faith. Mr. Harris is talking about Islamic religion, not civilization, but I think it is difficult to separate them; indeed, that is his premise.
Harris argues that religion is inherently violent, but some have mellowed over time and with sophistication. Christianity had evolved into a different animal since the Crusades, but Islam is now where Christianity was then.
Except instead of spears and catapults, they now have nuclear weapons. Imagine what the Crusades would have been with tanks, bombers and helicopters.
And the tolerence now present in most branches of Christianity and other, milder religions (cf. Buddhism), Islam teaches that non-believers must be executed and cannot be allowed to co-exist. Kill 'em all, let Allah sort 'em out!
To support his point, he includes 6 pages of short quotes from the Koran. If you thought the bible was violent, you should read these. No matter how much someone may say that Islam is a religion of peace, the primary source book for Islam seems to say otherwise.
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I just wanted to come in and say that but you did a good job. I’ll add more.
Sam Harris’s thesis in regard to Muslims is that a world in which Muslims get along with the rest of the world is a world in which they have, like the Christians and Jews, learned to ignore most of their religious beliefs. He makes the case that most current Muslim nations have almost no ‘moderates’, or they’re having about as much effect as a moderate Christian during the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum. It’s not so much the suicide bombers by themselves that are the problem, the problem is the parties, celebration, and (where allowed) dancing that follow…
No it isn’t. No more than ‘Israeli civilization’ or ‘Irish civilization’
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[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
msmith537 might wish to count up the numbers of attacks the IRA conducted during their years of terror. Though I suppose that would only ‘prove’ that Catholics are a ‘violent civilization’.
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Certainly no one would ever acuse a true Irishman of being violent
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
msmith537 seems to feel that citing ten examples of terrorism justifies condemning all Muslims as violent people.
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That’s not what I said.
The examples I gave, however, do discredit any statement that Islamic civilization (whatever that means) is inherently non-violent.
The OP has created a stupid straw-man and predictably, the thread has deteriorated into a battle of “so-and-so civilization is more violent!”
FWIW, political scientist Samuel Huntington believes there is an “Islamic Civilization” (and an “Orthodox Civilization” too; and a “Latin American Civilization” which is separate and distinct from the “Western Civilization” that includes the U.S. and Western Europe).
[QUOTE=mstay]
He makes the case that most current Muslim nations have almost no ‘moderates’, or they’re having about as much effect as a moderate Christian during the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum. It’s not so much the suicide bombers by themselves that are the problem, the problem is the parties, celebration, and (where allowed) dancing that follow…
[/QUOTE]
Remember, just because a nation has Muslims in it, or even a majority of Muslims, does not mean that Islam is the state relgion.
No they don’t actually. Cite please, how ‘Islamic civilizaton’ was responsible for those events. Small groups of people from nations with Islamic majorities may have been involved. That no more makes ‘Islamic civilization’ responsible than the existence of 128 American Serial Killers means that America is a ‘serial killer civilization’.
No they don’t actually. Cite please, how ‘Islamic civilizaton’ was responsible for those events. Small groups of people from nations with Islamic majorities may have been involved. That no more makes ‘Islamic civilization’ responsible than the existence of 128 American Serial Killers means that America is a ‘serial killer civilization’.
[/QUOTE]
Serial killers are mentally disturbed loners who are out to fullfill some sick personal fantasy.
All the terrorists attacks I mentioned were carried out by organized groups. These groups were often DIRECTLY supported by Islamic states and had the support of their countrymen and women.
These groups seem to have no trouble recruiting from a pool of willing participants.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
These groups were often DIRECTLY supported by Islamic states
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Cite, please. Also explain how being supported by some Islamic states (bearing in mind that the action of a state administration does not necessarily reflect the wishes/ideals of its populace, to wit; GWB) means all of Islam is ‘a violent civilization’.
Christians are taught to follw the teachings of the Gospels, not Deuteronomy.
[/QUOTE]
Oh really? Great, then. No more homo-hating then since all that comes from Leviticus and St. Paul, neither of which are part of the Gospels. Well this is indeed tremendous news.
:rolleyes:
Fundies trot out the entire Bible to back up their claims that they ‘follow god’ (and to beat ‘sinners’ over the head with. Just one example - Ten Commandments: not in the Gospels. Big chunks of that Bible advocate violence and intolerance.
You’re not going to tell me that ‘Bible study’ is only a study of the Gospels. Nor are you going to tell me that only the Gospel is read in the churches of numerous christian sects. So, sorry, but no point made here. The christian holy book isn’t better than, superior than, less violent than (etc etc) that of Islam.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
You’re not going to tell me that ‘Bible study’ is only a study of the Gospels. Nor are you going to tell me that only the Gospel is read in the churches of numerous christian sects. So, sorry, but no point made here. The christian holy book isn’t better than, superior than, less violent than (etc etc) that of Islam.
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Actually what little religious teaching I went through hardly touched upon the OT. It was almost exclusively the NT.
As for comparing the OT, NT and the Koran simply to count the number of nasty bits, that’s something you’ll need to do for yourself.
Fundies trot out the entire Bible to back up their claims that they ‘follow god’ (and to beat ‘sinners’ over the head with.
[/QUOTE]
Ahem…to throw your own logic back at you: there are millions upon millions of “fundies” out there, the great majority of whom do no Bible-trotting and/or beating sinners over the head. If there is no such thing as a violent society unless all its members are violent (ala your posts earlier in this thread), then there’s no such thing as Christians (or fundies, as you so lemmingly put it) as a whole trotting out Bibles and beating sinners over the head with it.
You can’t have it both ways, you know.
(Ain’t it funny how the bigotry one condemns in others when aimed at a favored target (Muslims in this case) suddenly becomes acceptable when it’s aimed at the accuser’s own reviled target (Christians in this case).
I must apologize to my esteemed SDMB colleague, Quiddity Glomfuster, for the ‘lemmingly’ remark. I realized my mistake (i.e., this is not the Pit) somewhat belatedly and even though the Edit button was still visible, my attempt to edit it out was disallowed as the time limit was up. I do apologize for my faux pas.
The shocking fact is, however, that suicide bombings receive widespread support in the Islamic world (where they are commonly called ‘Sacred Explosions’). If the American people supported the actions of serial killers to the extent to which so very many Muslims appear to support the actions of the terrorists born and bred within their midst, I’d say you would have excellent cause to label America a ‘serial killer civilisation’.
I am well aware that this is a controversial statement, in need of strong corroboration. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) polling has been done on this very issue. The results are not encouraging.
In 2002 over 38,000 people participated in a global study conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. The results constituted the first publication of its Global Attitudes Project entitled ‘What the World Thinks in 2002’. The study included the following question, posed only to Muslims.
Note the juxtaposition of the phrases “Suicide Bombing” and “Civilian Targets”. We now live in a world where Muslim’s have been scientifically polled, with margins of error between 2 and 4 percent, on the question of whether or not they support (Often, Sometimes, Rarely, or Never) the deliberate murder and maiming of civilian men, women, children, and babies. I’ve tabulated the results below.
SUICIDE BOMBING IN DEFENCE OF ISLAM
These are appalling numbers. Even if every country had answered 1% rarely justified and 99% never justified we would still have a problem worth worrying about, as we would still be talking about over a million avowed supporters of terrorism. As it is, we are talking about hundreds of millions of avowed supporters of terrorism. Consider, also, that Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian Territories were not included in the poll. If they had been it’s safe to say that Lebanon would have lost their position at the top of this ignominious list several times over.
Islamic Civilisation is a nebulous, indefinable term. However if current public opinion in the Arab world comprises any part of it, then the case can be made that the events msmith57 listed are, to an extent, the fruits of Islamic Civilisation.
