# Why do people confuse the original offense with non-compliance follow on penalties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737 "2018-09-04T14:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/21 "2018-09-04T18:12:46Z")
I don’t have a viewpoint yet on fines, as I’m still exploring the issue. What alternative to fines do those who oppose them propose? And what consequences for not fulfilling those alternatives? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/22 "2018-09-04T18:26:20Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I don’t have a viewpoint yet on fines, as I’m still exploring the issue. What alternative to fines do those who oppose them propose? And what consequences for not fulfilling those alternatives? The obvious alternative to fines is community service–which is unpaid labor. For example you might spend a few hours picking up trash along the roadside. The consequence for not fulfilling any of the alternatives (fine or community service) is jail. Note fines should be able to be paid over time. Note in parts of Europe a popular type of fine is the day-fine which varies with income: > **[Day-fine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine)** > > A day-fine, day fine, unit fine or structured fine is a unit of payment for a legal fine which is based on the offender's daily personal income. It is intended as a punishment financially equivalent to incarceration for one day without salary, scaled to equal impacts on both high- and low-income offenders. An analogy may be drawn with income tax, which is also proportional to income, or even levied at higher rates for higher incomes. > Jurisdictions employing the day-fine include Denmark (Danish: ... ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/23 "2018-09-04T19:07:26Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I don’t have a viewpoint yet on fines, as I’m still exploring the issue. What alternative to fines do those who oppose them propose? And what consequences for not fulfilling those alternatives? Around here if a person is unable to pay a fine, the magistrate will offer community service at the rate of $10/hr to be applied to the fine. I agree with the OP. There are people who will continually ignore a minor issue until it becomes a major issue. If the end result is that we just let it slide, then nobody will pay their speeding tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/24 "2018-09-04T19:13:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …]Punishment is supposed to hurt. You are supposed to want to avoid the punishment enough to avoid the behavior that leads to the punishment. If the fine for speeding was $10, so poor people could afford it, you are going to get a lot more people, rich, poor, or middle-class, speeding. > > Regards, > Shodan See, this is the thing. When I had sudden infusions of income I very boldly exceeded the speed limit, only wore my seat belt when I felt like it, and if conditions were right, let my dog off his leash where I wasn’t supposed to. Because what the hell, the fine wasn’t going to bother me. I know, I’m a terrible person. But the thing here is that, when I had plenty of money, the punishment was nothing to me. It was just money. That isn’t right. The punishment should equally hurt everyone who breaks the law. But it doesn’t. It has a disproportionate effect on people without. There’s really already enough punishment built in to people who don’t have enough money, even if they never break the law. Driving around, it looks to me like everyone’s speeding. But some of these people have more to lose than others if they’re caught. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/25 "2018-09-04T19:26:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A woman dead in a jail cell after being arrested for a minor violation I’m not sure, but you _might_ be doing here precisely what the thread title is talking about: confusing the original offense with non-compliance follow-on penalties. She wasn’t put in jail for the minor violation of speeding, but for accumulating many speeding tickets and then not paying them. I’m not sure whether or not she deserved to be in jail; and nobody’s saying she deserved to end up dead. But I think that, if you rack up and ignore enough speeding tickets, it ceases to be a “minor violation.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/26 "2018-09-04T19:28:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not talking about bail though; it’s the conflation of separate penalties that confuses me. . It’s not this issue, it is, in terms of understanding new stories, all of them. People don’t notice the subtleties. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/27 "2018-09-04T19:41:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’m not sure, but you _might_ be doing here precisely what the thread title is talking about: confusing the original offense with non-compliance follow-on penalties. She wasn’t put in jail for the minor violation of speeding, but for accumulating many speeding tickets and then not paying them. > > I’m not sure whether or not she deserved to be in jail; and nobody’s saying she deserved to end up dead. But I think that, if you rack up and ignore enough speeding tickets, it ceases to be a “minor violation.” No, I’m saying in a case like you describe dying in a jail cell is not justified by the original offense or the follow ups. I was originally only stating that everyone minimizes their offenses whether or not the result was just. If the result has bet maximized, or in the case of death in jail cell exceeding the legal maximum, then it is reasonable to point out the disparity. But if someone gets a speeding ticket and pays a hefty price for ignoring the ticket then it’s no excuse to say it was only a speeding ticket. That though assumes the process is just. But you don’t have much credibility if you shoot and kill someone and then say you are spending your life in prison because you had an unlicensed gun. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/28 "2018-09-04T19:42:44Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > See, this is the thing. When I had sudden infusions of income I very boldly exceeded the speed limit, only wore my seat belt when I felt like it, and if conditions were right, let my dog off his leash where I wasn’t supposed to. Because what the hell, the fine wasn’t going to bother me. > > I know, I’m a terrible person. But the thing here is that, when I had plenty of money, the punishment was nothing to me. It was just money. > > That isn’t right. The punishment should equally hurt everyone who breaks the law. But it doesn’t. It has a disproportionate effect on people without. > > There’s really already enough punishment built in to people who don’t have enough money, even if they never break the law. > > Driving around, it looks to me like everyone’s speeding. But some of these people have more to lose than others if they’re caught. IMHO, you are addressing an argument for another thread: Whether fines should be proportioned to income or wealth. Regardless of the law, if I get a $200 fine for speeding, I have to address that, either by paying or by going to court, or calling, emailing, or writing a letter to the court, and pleading with the judge or the prosecutor to give me more time to pay or an alternative method of satisfying it. I cannot just pitch the ticket in the garbage or sit on my ass and bitch about how the system is unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/29 "2018-09-04T19:52:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > “I have to drive my kids to school, or I have to drive to work” is NOT an excuse to break the law. > > If one doesn’t have valid license/registration/insurance, you cannot drive. Full stop. It can be under highly unusual circumstances. We bought a car and the dealer could not give us the title because he refused to pay the floorplan company. In my state 1. It is impossible to permanently register a car without a title 2. The investigator could only OK a 30 day permit. 3. You HAVE to go to the DMV office in your home county to temp-register a car and only the owner can register it. This means that short of taking a day off from work every month I would have to wait until Friday to get through Denver rush hour plus another 50 miles and pray I got there before the DMV closed (usually with less than 5 minutes to spare) to re-register my car for another 30 days. And this was over a year and a half. And yes the car was stopped once for not having current registration. When we explained the situation the judge was sympathetic and apologized that the law was strict-liability. After we explained the situation, the ahole cop (in a flak jacket in court no less) berated Mrs. Cad and used his time to “re-examine” her by saying “Why were you driving in **MY** city without registration.” “Because I had to take my son to school.” \ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/30 "2018-09-04T20:00:18Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It’s your flagrant middle finger to obeying the law/social contract of driving to begin with The issue, and it’s really more of an observation than a lead in to some kind of Universal Truth… Obeying the social contract is often a function of money. Behave in a stupid/inconsiderate/borderline dangerous manner and all is forgiven if you write a prompt check for the bill. > [@](#): > > arrested on a warrant for 15 unpaid parking tickets A poor person racks up 15 unpaid tickets in 3 years and he gets thrown in jail. Another person\* can rack up 10 tickets a week and it’s all good just as long as he (or his employer) pays up promptly. The town probably doesn’t even want him to stop, dude is a serious money maker! A few days ago I was listening to the radio (NYC station) and the host mentioned how he parked for work in the wee hours the day before and was surprised at the number of spots on the street. He messed up his days and didn’t realize it was a no-parking day, so he got a ticket. For him, a guy with a good job, it was a chuckle about how dumb he was. For someone living paycheck to paycheck, it’s time to sit at the kitchen table with the wife, and try to figure out what the family will have to do without. \*such as a UPS driver ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/31 "2018-09-04T20:12:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Lots of people think that the rules don’t apply to them, because of their own special circumstances. Add to that the conviction that ‘if I just ignore it, it will go away.’ And some other people are enablers. > > And as long as you don’t get caught, and even sometimes when you do, the consequences are easier than paying for insurance, or not speeding, or whatever. Yes, but it is easier - not better, easier - to just blow it off and not bother with your court date. Sure, the judge might issue a warrant, but that won’t affect you until you are busted for something else. And that’s way in the future. If they could abide by a payment plan, they would have insurance already. > > There are two ways of looking at it. > [ul][li]I can’t afford to pay the fines, so I better not speed or drive without a license. Vs.[/ul][ul][\*]I can’t afford to pay the fines, so you should let me speed or drive without a license.[/ul]Punishment is supposed to hurt. You are supposed to want to avoid the punishment enough to avoid the behavior that leads to the punishment. If the fine for speeding was $10, so poor people could afford it, you are going to get a lot more people, rich, poor, or middle-class, speeding. [/li] > Regards, > Shodan So, it sounds like what you are saying is that speeding and parking tickets are not punishments to well off people, as the punishment doesn’t hurt. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > This QFT. > Just look at the people on the highway that cut people off, drive on the shoulder during rush hour, drive to the end of a merge lane then force their way in, think they have a right to change lanes by signaling (or just pointing to the lane) even if you are there, park in no parking zones, take up 2 (or more) parking spaces, etc. > > Those are the sort of people that let tickets go and don’t pay them then when arrested on a warrant for 15 unpaid parking tickets or a speeding ticket that has grown from $200 to $1500 with fines and interest complain that it is “just about the ticket(s)”. It’s not. It’s your flagrant middle finger to obeying the law/social contract of driving to begin with and that you’re a special snowflake that should be exempt from all rules that inconvience you so af course being held accountable is totally unfair to YOU and being in that situation is totally NOT your fault. Everyone that I have even known that drove like this did so specifically because they were not worried about the fines, they had money, connections, or lawyers which meant that there was not even an inconvenience to them for this sort of driving, much less a punishment. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/32 "2018-09-04T20:26:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It can be under highly unusual circumstances. We bought a car and the dealer could not give us the title because he refused to pay the floorplan company. In my state > > 1. It is impossible to permanently register a car without a title > 2. The investigator could only OK a 30 day permit. > 3. You HAVE to go to the DMV office in your home county to temp-register a car and only the owner can register it. > > This means that short of taking a day off from work every month I would have to wait until Friday to get through Denver rush hour plus another 50 miles and pray I got there before the DMV closed (usually with less than 5 minutes to spare) to re-register my car for another 30 days. And this was over a year and a half. > > And yes the car was stopped once for not having current registration. When we explained the situation the judge was sympathetic and apologized that the law was strict-liability. After we explained the situation, the ahole cop (in a flak jacket in court no less) berated Mrs. Cad and used his time to “re-examine” her by saying > “Why were you driving in **MY** city without registration.” > “Because I had to take my son to school.” > \ I’m obviously not your lawyer, but why did you accept the car at the outset? The dealer breached your contract by not delivering title. I’m not sure why you would put up with that for a year and a half. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/33 "2018-09-04T20:28:40Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It can be under highly unusual circumstances. Can you provide a cite that Colorado, or any other state, has an exemption written into the law that allows people to drive an unregistered or uninsured vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/34 "2018-09-04T22:35:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Can you provide a cite that Colorado, or any other state, has an exemption written into the law that allows people to drive an unregistered or uninsured vehicle? They don’t hence the fine. My point is that with something out of our control it is reasonable to drive without registration but we still ended up paying the fine. And from the Judge’s comments he may had been willing to dismiss the case had it not been a strict-liability violation. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/35 "2018-09-04T22:36:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m obviously not your lawyer, but why did you accept the car at the outset? The dealer breached your contract by not delivering title. I’m not sure why you would put up with that for a year and a half. We had made payments before taking delivery. The alternative was to just write-off $4000 and not have a car. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/36 "2018-09-04T23:30:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > My point is that with something out of our control it is reasonable to drive without registration but we still ended up paying the fine. Well, I disagree that it’s reasonable to drive without registration. Even in a medical emergency, it’s likely one would get better care from the EMTs rather that driving themselves. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/37 "2018-09-04T23:35:35Z")
Yeah, sorry **Saint Cad** , it was convenient for you but not reasonable. Given the circumstances it was also reasonable to let you off lightly and unreasonable for a cop to act like a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/38 "2018-09-05T00:20:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s not just this one case; it’s an attitude I keep running across- this one just happened to be more annoying than most, since there aren’t the mitigating circumstances of poverty. …more annoying than casually dismissing the tragic circumstances of somebody’s death because “there aren’t the mitigating circumstances of poverty?” ---
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/39 "2018-09-05T05:46:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > casually dismissing the tragic circumstances of somebody’s death That’s unfair. The OP has said several times that the prison staff were at fault, and also that he/she was complaining people on discussion forum. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737/40 "2018-09-05T06:21:56Z")
> [@blob](#): > > That’s unfair. The OP has said several times that the prison staff were at fault, and also that he/she was complaining people on discussion forum. …not unfair at all. Read the post I quoted. > [@bump](#): > > It’s not just this one case; it’s an attitude I keep running across- this one just happened to be more annoying than most, since there aren’t the mitigating circumstances of poverty. That post shows a callous disregard for Kelly Coltrain. We haven’t even mentioned her name in this thread. bump’s annoyance at comments made by random anonymous reddit posters is enhanced because Coltrain apparently isn’t poor enough. How on earth am I being unfair? If I had a choice: I’d be much more annoyed with bump’s post in this thread than I would be by a hypothetical reddit poster. I’m with the “offenderati”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-confuse-the-original-offense-with-non-compliance-follow-on-penalties/820737.md?page=3)