Oh, I missed this:
I have never participated in anonymous snark. Never. That dog won’t hunt. I even registered on Deadjournal as “Weirddave” years ago so I could reply as myself to some of the things said there. I don’t hide who I am, and I don’t hide what I think. If you think I’m getting some kind of ghoulish thrill by spreading malicious gossip from behind the cover of a keyboard, you are sadly, grievously mistaken.
A reference to the surfeit of “controversial flag” posts of late. And again, I ANSWERED THE QUESTION IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS.
This is a mistake on my part and for this I do sincerely apologize. I got you confused with another poster who uses Dave (Great Dave). When I referenced the other flag I realized my mistake. I withdraw this comment with legitimate apologies and admission of error.
I’ll let him speak for himself.
Now who’s building straw men? That is most certainly not all you said.
I do. You’re using the wrong terms.
They LOST their lives.
They LOST their freedom.
They LOST their mental health.
It seems simple but there is a BIG difference. A sacrifice is a religous act. It can be voluntarily given- how many of these people would have voluntarily agreed to be killed, go mad, or be PoWs? If they were sane, none. Their deaths accomplished nothing- the world is not a safer place because of them- that sucks but it’s true.
The hardest part to me about being an atheist is Anne Frank. Anne Frank was a 14 year old Jewish girl who through no fault of her own was dragged from her home terrified, separated from her family, denied even the essentials of life, and died feverish and covered in her own shit and vomit and flies. The men who dragged her from her home- some died in the war perhaps, others probably lived to play with their great-grandchildren and never lost a minute’s sleep. Her death was not a sacrifice- it was a combination of murder and disease.
The fact somebody died does NOT mean it was some religious act or greatly ennobled gesture. 4,000 Americans and God knows how many Iraqis have died in our current war. Outside of Afghanistan what have they accomplished? They’re not sacrifices, they’re dead bodies. I refuse to dishonor (for to me it is dishonoring them) to make them something they weren’t. They were individuals who died in a war, their legacy should be remembering that human life is irreplaceable and precious and should NOT be thrown away by changing whims of ideology and words of demagogues.
I digress.
No, it’s not. Personal would be if I said “Your [specific relative/friend] who died in Vietnam deserved to die” or whatever, which I never said and which I do not think. Your calling me a (and by extension all gay men) a faggot (you could just as easily have said “so now jokes about gays are acceptable?” could you not?) is personal. You deliberately aimed a homophobic slur at me. Period. If a black Doper had disagreed with and offended you in a thread you would NEVER EVER EVER have said “So I guess we can tell nigger jokes now!”- oh I’ve no doubt you’ll swear you would, but you wouldn’t have. There is no defending your ground.
How do you know I’m not one of them?
Thanks for this tidbit. And I did NOT belittle people who fly the MIA/POW flag in remembrance. I made a joking remark about controversial flags on this board (I started to say something to the effect of “Finally it’s not the Confederate flag being debated” but…). It’s a remark specific to the Dope, and again and again and again READ THE NEXT SENTENCE— I not only asked the question but I mentioned that there are many people who are still emotional over the great and unfair suffering of those prisoners---- read it!
Where did I lightly dismiss them?
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
They died because there was a war on and they got killed in it. How did the death of men in Vietnam protect my freedoms? How does the attack on Tikrit protect my right to do a damned thing? I recognize that- as in the Anne Frank comment above- it is perhaps human habit and human necessity to elevate and add nobility to a death, but that doesn’t make it true. I don’t belittle their lives, I mourn them. I lament them. The equation of war deaths with automatic saintliness and entry into heaven is barbaric in fundamentalist Islam, it is no less so in American culture.
I completely agree there are necessary wars. World War II- vitally necessary. I do not blame the men and women who have died in Iraq or Vietnam or other conflicts that won’t stand to scrutiny in true cause for the war itself- I hope they all come home safe, I can’t emphasize how much I mean that- but I will not buy into the jingoism that
their death=my freedom
It is simply not true. And it is an insult to them to say it was- it is like saying “Hey, if an American soldier dies, then that’s bad… BUT IT HELPED AMERICA!” Bullshit. That is, imo, unAmerican, and it is EXACTLY the problem with the current administration and its Kool Aid drinkers.
Not all deaths mean something. It’s horrible, but it’s true. Realizing that is the key to understanding how terrible a single military death is.
We will never agree on this probably, so no need to work towards synthesis.
Again, you personally insulted me by calling me a faggot and disrespecting my dead mother. That’s PERSONAL. What you took umbrage with me over was
1- a joke about a Confederate flag that while perhaps out of place was most certainly not interpreted by others the way you did
2- the fact I disagree with your jingoism that American Deaths=Noble Sacrifice=More Freedom
Again, personal would be if I insulted your dead brother/father/grandmother/friend. A political argument is not personal,
UNLESS
You want to say that whenever somebody says “I support John McCain” I can say “Well you’re a kike and you have an autistic kid” because, after all, John McCain is against rights for “faggots” so I take that real “personal”.
In conclusion, you’re an imbecile. And I’m a faggot with a dead mother (Scottish name: Faggus McDeadmom). Now we know each other.
I’ll take your word for it. Still and all, whether I’m called a faggot anonymously or not, I’ve been called a faggot either way, and my mother disrespected to boot. I did nothing to warrant this, it was uncalled for, I’ll be goddamned before I apologize for offending you in a comment about the Confederate flag when you went this far and took it this personally, and while I won’t make issue of it with a mod I think that if you’d used a racial expletive in the same context you’d have already received a warning. But then you’d never do that would you? For you’re a coward and a homophobe (I know I know I know you have lots of gay friends and you hold PFlag rallies in your basement and you personally marched holding hands with Elton John and Quentin Crisp, but odd how quick you are to say “faggot” to a gay man who disagrees with you on a political point.)
That said, I remain forever indebted to your wife who I believe to me a fine person.
Sampiro, before I stop reading this trainwreck, I just want to state my admiration for how well you have kept your cool and continued to state your very well-reasoned and eloquent points in the face of this extreme personal abuse. You are one of my SDMB heroes.
Sampiro,
The majority of your post is just so much revisionist history nonsense. I think you, and people that think like you do WRT history and wars that this country has fought are a textbook example of What’s-Wrong-With-America-Today™, but as you say, that’s something we’ll probably never reach a consensus on so I’m just going to let it go.
As to other matters, you say that I would never say “Oh, so now it’s OK to make nigger jokes”, but in fact I would. I most definitely would in a similar situation, because the offensiveness of the example is the entire point. I didn’t say “gay”, I said “faggot” precisely because it’s the more offensive term. THAT’S THE POINT. It boggles my mind that your response isn’t to realize that you may have overstepped the bounds of decency, but to contend that what you said wasn’t offensive because a: It was just a joke riffing off of a recent board thread, b: The Vietnam war was a mistake, c: You weren’t intending to be offensive or d: Some combination of all three. You can sit here all day and say “Oh, it’s not personal”, but I’m telling you to many people, myself included, it IS. If someone makes a gay joke, and it offends you, does their saying over and over again “oh, I didn’t mean it that way” make it any less offensive? Of course not, but here you are, doing exactly that.
As to the rest? Whatever dude, you wanna feel persecuted by big bad homophobe me, knock yourself out. :rolleyes: When you’re done with that cross though, can I have it? We’re moving to a new house that has a fireplace, and I can burn the wood this winter.
I hate to rain on the love fest here, but he’s called me “Imbicile”, “Coward” and “Homophobe” amongst other things, in GD no less. I have not insulted him once. If that’s your idea of “keeping your cool” then I have to wonder what you would consider losing it.
What?!? You are going to burn a cross? Now thats racist. 
That is absolutely not true. I spelled it correctly.
Yeah, I did do those.
Of course not. As a matter of fact when I go to lunch at my favorite Chinese place the waitress says “Hey faggot with dead mama! Diet Coke today or sweet tea?” It’s just standard and evidently international greeting. (Diet Coke today, if you’re interested.)
Oh, and a notice to all Christians who read the SDMB: whenever the religion that you feel passionately about is belittled or dealt with insensitively by atheist or agnostic Dopers such as myself, remember- it’s a personal insult, so feel free to haul back and call me a “Cocksucking Mama’s boy!” Not only is it your right as somebody who’s seen something you feel passionately about “belittled” in your opinion, but it’s not even slander- truth be known I was a Mama’s boy and as for other- I don’t like to brag but let’s just say ‘prizes’". After all, you’ve been personally insulted by having somebody mock or disagree with something you feel strongly about so it’s no different than someone making light of your sister’s cervical cancer- get personal right back! Don’t worry about mods or others weighing in, it’s all the same.
OOOhhh! I called it! Do I know my friend Weirddave or what? I said
and he said
Damn, it’s like we’re the Hilton sisters dancing the hoochy koo we know each other so well!
Refresher though— you just said sometimes it’s okay to say nigger and in another current thread you say it’s so offensive that all white people should be pitted when one says it. What’s the difference?
Ah… it’s when you say it that it’s alright.
(PS- I know I know, you were being facetious about pitting all white people; you didn’t say that exactly, which is a pity because I’d LOVE to see how you spelled facetious if you can mess up inbread [sic] and imbicile [sic]).
Ah, this new “If you’re personally offended as you define the term then you can say anything as long as there’s a point” era of GD promises to be fun. Please excuse me… I’m going to go start a “Does Anybody Really Believe the Holocaust Happened?” thread to see if I can learn some new slurs for Australians.
He just told you he’s from a long line of Southerners.
Plus, he may have a black neighbor who insulted his hedgerow and he needs to burn a cross to show that he took it personally.
So now your argument is that there is no difference between calling someone a nigger and mentioning a “nigger joke”? Somewhere in your attic there is a painting that’s getting smarter by the minute.
Right, because we anti-war lefties all share exactly the same views, and if any one of us says anything you perceive as being “anti-troop”, it must mean we all hate the troops. :rolleyes:
That’s pretty good, actually. Not bad at all. (Assuming it’s original, which in fairness I’ve no reason not to do.)
That takes the wit right out of the last one.
If you say “I think nigger jokes are offensive”, then… frankly, I think it’s an offensive statement. You could just as easily say “I find racist jokes offensive”, so IMO it is offensive. Your mileage may vary, potato potigger.
Now if you had said to me above that “I guess next up is [ethnic/racial slur of your choosing that cannot reasonably be applied to Sampiro] jokes”- well, I still think you should have used a more generic term, but if it was “black jokes” then I’d have no right to take it personally. I’m not black.
But let’s suppose that Bill Cosby joined these boards. Bill pisses you off by a comment he makes on MIAs. You respond with
“So I guess its okay to make jokes about niggers and dead sons now is it?”
Do you honestly not see that you’ve just, however roundabout, used a racial slur against Bill Cosby? Because Bill Cosby is black. Nigger is specifically a racial slur about blacks. You CHOSE it because it’s a racial slur about blacks and because it applies to him and because you know he has a dead son. (My dead mother- that’s another topic that I’ll table [or slab as the case may be] for now.)
============================
Let’s have a TRIAL BY DOPERS. I’ll explain in just a second.
A PETITION FOR TRIAL BY MODS (or by Dopers as a contingency)
Here’s the case:
I would really seriously like to have a Mod’s ruling on this. Let me make a BIG DISCLAIMER-
I AM NOT MAKING A COMPLAINT ABOUT WEIRDDAVE NOR AM I ASKING FOR A WARNING OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF OFFICIAL ACTION. What I am wanting is an unbiased reasonable person’s opinion. What I’d love to have is 3 mods weigh in on the topic, but failing that, I’ll accept the majority of “regular” Dopers on the topic.
Here’s my argument (and Weirddave can write his own):
I acknowledge that Weirddave and I together have wrecked this thread, and for my role in that I express sincere apology (on my behalf at least).
I also acknowledge that I became a bit angrier than I should have and have not been altogether rational. The degree- I’ll leave to others.
MY CONTENTION, HOWEVER:
I believe that Weirddave crossed a line. I specifically believe that when he used the word faggot (which is a deliberately hateful term and he knows it) in direct reference to me (i.e. he would not have used it for a straight doper) and referenced my mother’s death (which is not so much a sore point anymore but has in the past been a painful topic) he was FAR too personal and insensitive.
I do NOT believe that I provoked this attack or that I am overly sensitive in referring to it as an attack. He deliberately used hate speech and referenced a painful memory in a deliberate attempt to inflame.
I acknowledge that the Confederate flag reference I made early in the thread can be reasonably conceived to be in poor taste, but I also believe it clear, especially in conjunction with what I wrote immediately afterwards, that no reasonable person can construe it as a personal attack.
My opinions on the intrinsic ennobling of veterans deaths is, I completely understand, highly controversial. I also maintain that nowhere was it meant to be a personal attack on the soldiers themselves or on their families and that no reasonable person could maintain it to be.
Therefore, I appeal to the mods (or to Dopers if the Mods don’t arise). If you believe that I crossed the line into too personal, I’ll accept that. If you believe that he alone who crossed the line into the too personal, I will of course accept that as well. (Please do not say “you’re both to blame” because it’s neither here nor there- we both lost our tempers, unless you truly believe we’re both exactly 50/50. I’m asking “who’s to blame more” and “does faggot in the context in which it was used constitute inappropriate language for GD” and “is a dead mama too personal”.)
That said, if a majority of mods (or Dopers, in the even that not 3 or more mods respond) believe that I’m responsible, I will accept your opinion and apologize to Weirddave.
Weirddave of course is welcome to present his own case.
I think this is a fair way of deciding what’s become a heated issue, neh?
If a majority of mods side with WeirdDave and say that I am being oversensitive in thinking that his use of “faggots” and “dead mother” are opinion., I will apologize to him.
Well, Sampiro, here goes nothing.
Even though from my POV you had the best of the actual and factual points in debate, I also feel you’re both just as guilty of derailing this thread into ad-hominens. And even if I can see where you’d feel Weirdave got too personal, I still think you should have left your (original) arguments to fend for themselves – for I felt they more than sufficed on merit in rebutting Dave’s emotional diatribes.
What went on after that, if you’ll pardon my saying so, was pretty much akin to pigs wrestling in mud.
Trust neither one of you enjoyed it.
Aye, but which pig was the piggiest?
God save me from drama queens. In this thread, that goes for both of you.
I don’t need your apology, you’re free to feel how you feel and respond in whatever way seems best to you. I will go a step further and offer you mine. It was never my intention to offend you, I was merely trying to point out that I found what you were saying to be offensive, much like you would likely be offended by jokes about faggots or dead mothers (hey, looks like I was right). Perhaps I could have stated that more clearly in the original post (though I thought it was pretty clear), maybe by saying something like “I am offended by your post, much as you probably would be if I started posting faggot jokes”. You seriously took offense, and we were off to the nickelodeon.
In any event, I’m not mad at you, you may not believe this but I really don’t care what your sexual orientation is, and I don’t feel like you owe me an apology. Mostly I’ve been shaking my head thinking “I can’t believe that he doesn’t see what I am clearly saying”. Maybe you do see and don’t agree, maybe you don’t want to see my point because I banged one of your buttons. In any event, from my side anyway, this is just a message board squabble and is about as meaningful as a mouse fart.
Beyond Jr High, does it really matter?
No hijacking! This is a thread about flags, fags, and the people who blow them both, not theater or royalty.
Or even in Jr. High for that matter, but I am curious on the matter.