# Why do people hate Jews? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711 "2004-12-08T06:58:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/201 "2004-12-20T09:08:42Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Those two types of people are Jews and anti-Semites. > [@gum](#): > > I’m not Jewish **PaulFitzroy** **Gum**! you damn anti-Semite!! If you really want to know Paul. Am not Jewish. Neither do I want to be. I mostly want to discuss Hannah Arendt’s writings. Seems I’m all alone in that. _sniff_ _sniff_. I’m clannish all by my lonely self. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/202 "2004-12-20T15:24:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > **Gum**! you damn anti-Semite!! > > If you really want to know Paul. Am not Jewish. Neither do I want to be. > I mostly want to discuss Hannah Arendt’s writings. Seems I’m all alone in that. _sniff_ _sniff_. I’m clannish all by my lonely self. hehehehe 🙂 I promise to get a copy of Hannah Arendt’s book, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/203 "2004-12-20T17:38:30Z")
Hey **Jack** , I’m curious what you actually thought of my cites, especially the analysis by Rabbi Wein. We’ve heard interesting comments from **Dseid** , **Tom** , and others, but you seem to have dismissed or negated the very possibility that many Jewish people apparently have no problems describing either themselves or their culture/religion as varyingly insular, either at the present or in a historical context or both (even “tenaciously” insular, according to Wein). I won’t repeat again the previous arguments you haven’t yet given a fair treatment, as I think anyone with some independent thinking can make up their own minds one way or the other at this point; but I do wonder if you think those Jewish people I quoted in various formal or informal writings were suffering some kind of disconnect, or if you thought they might be talking about something other than slurs? Because (I hate to repeat it) I certainly was. And I had good reason, having read such arguments and treatments in the past. Well. Some comments I found while test-driving the Google function **Dseid** introduced: [This paper](http://www2.oakland.edu/oujournal/files/S03Cardillo.pdf) on the historical Jewish ghettos of Venice distinguishes between “the insularity of the Ashekenzim in the Ghetto Nuovo” and “the Levantines’ immersion in Venetian material culture” (it is a paper focusing more on architecture than history, but seems to be referring unequivocally to cultural practices). [this abstract](http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500000REQSUB=&REQSTR1=S0269889702000388) is interesting: > [@](#): > > [Seductive Science and the Emergence of the Secular Jewish Intellectual](http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500000REQSUB=&REQSTR1=S0269889702000388) > > * * * > > Shmuel Feiner > Department of Jewish History, Bar-Ilan University > > This article depicts the emergence of the modern, secular Jewish intellectual in the eighteenth century as a process of intellectual seduction and irresistible attraction of young men to knowledge outside the boundaries of Jewish culture. In the rhetoric of the Haskalah (Enlightenment), the cultural conversion was often described metaphorically as sexual attraction to a forbidden woman. The passion for knowledge inaccessible within the traditional Jewish culture (mainly of the natural sciences, but also of Hebrew, European languages, and philosophy) and intense curiosity were the hallmarks of the early maskilim (Jewish Enlighteners). It is difficult now to assess the sense of audacity, the awareness of sin, of guilt, and of subversion entailed in the desire to enter the realms of extra-Jewish and extra-religious knowledge, as well as the barriers of language and social norms that had to be crossed. The encounter of the Ashkenazi elite in eighteenth-century Europe with extra-Jewish knowledge was a traumatic conflict that grew in intensity as the shelf of Hebrew books and the number of maskilim grew. Certainly seems to me to be discussing attempts among specific Jewish groups to overcome barriers that might legitimately be called insular. I can’t access the full article though, as is the case for most of these papers. [This abstract](http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525%2Frac.2003.13.2.205?cookieSet=1) discusses the missionary experiments in the first half of the 20th century by Reform Jews, and says that Jews “won the intellectual respect of many, although certainly not all, Americans. Jews thrived in post-World War II America because they had learned, through a variety of means, to explain themselves, their practices, beliefs, and identities to non-Jews.” Again we have a theme of “emerging”. **DSeid** , can’t participate in the new thread as I am about to travel and am limiting myself to this one until it dies, but there is material in this thread for the new one that you could transfer. In particular the trends that may be distilled from a present reading would seem to be secular Jews at one end being most open, and the rigidly Orthodox at the other; with a clear trend in very recent history to higher intermarriage (and thus “ethnic dispersion”) rates among secular Jews (or at least documented primarily among them). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/204 "2004-12-20T18:24:59Z")
_Originally posted by gum_ > [@](#): > > The Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment, was an intellectual movement in Europe that lasted from approximately the 1770s to the 1880s. The Haskalah was inspired by the European Enlightenment but had a Jewish character. Literally, Haskalah comes from the Hebrew word sekhel, meaning “reason” or intellect" and the movement was based on rationality. It encouraged Jews to study secular subjects, to learn both the European and Hebrew languages, and to enter fields such as agriculture, crafts, the arts and science. The maskilim (followers of the Haskalah) tried to assimilate into European society in dress, language, manners and loyalty to the ruling power. The Haskalah eventually influenced the creation of both the Reform and Zionist movements > One of the biggest changes of the Haskalah was in education. The maskilim tried to remove Talmud from its central position in Jewish education. They included Jewish studies in their curricula but emphasized secular knowledge, modern languages and practical training in labor, in order to help the Jews become integrated into society > The first Haskalah school was founded in Berlin in 1778 and called both the Freischule (“Free School”) and Hinnukh Ne’arim (“Youth Education”). It was a free education designed for poor children and the curriculum included German, French, arithmetic, geography, history, art, some Bible studies and Hebrew. The school was successful and began with 70 students. Other Haskalah style schools developed in Dessau and Frankfort on the Main, among other places. In all of these schools, Talmud was almost completely abandoned and both Hebrew and general studies were taught. Educators began to write textbooks to guide the new curricula. > In the Netherlands, Jews gave up Yiddish in favor of Dutch. A Jewish weekly published in Dutch began in 1806. In 1808, a Jewish society in Amsterdam translated the Bible and prayer book into Dutch and printed textbooks in both Dutch and Hebrew. In 1809, King Louis Bonaparte of the Netherlands issued a decree prohibiting the use of Yiddish in documents. Sermons were to be given in Dutch and Dutch became the language of instruction for youth. In France, French had been spoken even before the Haskalah. In Hungary, maskilim substituted Hungarian for Yiddish in Jewish schools and synagogue sermons. > In most of Western Europe, the Haskalah ended with large numbers of Jews assimilating. Many Jews stopped adhering to halakha (Jewish law). The struggle for emancipation in Germany awakened some doubts about the future of Jews in Europe and eventually led to both immigration to America and Zionism. In Russia, anti-Semitism ended the Haskalah. Some Jews responded to this anti-Semitism by campaigning for emancipation, others joined revolutionary movements and assimilated, and some turned to Jewish nationalism in the form of the Zionist Hibbat Zion movement. This is what I was referring to. The Pilgrims had a similar issue to consider when they left England for the Netherlands: The Dutch accepted them practicing their own religion, but the adult Pilgrims realized that their children would become “more Dutch than English”–losing their identity altogether. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/205 "2004-12-20T18:57:35Z")
**dougie\_monty** , I do see the issue–and it is one that Catholic immigrants to the U.S. and the Amish of the Midwest have wrestled with (and continue to do so). I was simply puzzled by what I understood to be your comment that someone on this thread had proposed (from the outside) that efforts be made for the Jews to be assimilated. The discussion to which you linked is the natural _internal_ discussion that each group faces when a minority group attempts to be accepted by the surrounding majority. I agree that the issue is a pertinent one for any group (and that there have, indeed, been outsiders (_e.g._,the late and not exactly lamented **John John** ) who have suggested that the Jews would be accepted if they just stopped being Jewish). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/206 "2004-12-20T22:27:53Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Still haven’t gotten an answer to my question…I’m just curious. Who’s Jewish here? > > Why am I “shocked?” I’ve encountered two types of people in my lifetime who have an intense concern and preoccupation with Jews, the type of people who can discuss anti-Semitism for 5 pages. Those two types of people are Jews and anti-Semites. Damn… I guess you’ve not encountered the type of people who care about truth and justice for all ‘groups’? > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > I’m not “shit my pants in amazement” shocked, just surprised, that people could argue over _whether or not Jews are clannish_, which has been the overarching theme of the more recent pages of this trifling, legnthy debate, not “social justice” or any other lofty concept you might crusade in the name of. See though, not having destructive steryotypes does indeed contribute to social justice. And, would you have been so suprised if there was a five page thread debating whether or not, oh, say, african americans were more “criminalish” than “clannish”? (yes, I know criminalish isn’t a word) > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > If Jews are “clannish,” so what? Is that a bad thing? Yes. It perpetuates the masks of Self and Other. And history has shown us that cultures feel justified in doing some nasty shit to The Other. After all, they’re not like us. > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > I don’t see how it is…as far as I’m concerned it means they can rely on each other. Most immigrant groups are clannish, and the Jews have been immigrants in almost every nation on Earth. So they’ve decided to rely on each other to advance socially and economically. It’s what certain people might call a “wise strategy.” Except it’s not true, and it attempts to make Jews fungible. My family certainly wasn’t aided by the Jew tang clan. I’m sure many others weren’t. Are we to differentiate between orthodox Jews, conservative, reform, reconstructionist? Is a Jew from Tel Aviv the same as a refusnik from Russia? > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Not some dirty word to be ashamed of. It’s a slur that’s been used to justify murder. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/207 "2004-12-20T22:41:24Z")
These indeed are the subjects I wanted to bring into that new thread (that appears to rapidly approaching falling off the page). The differences between _aculturation_ - acquiring the tools to function within a society and to interact with the ideas of the society while preserving an independent identity - and _assimilation_ - being absorbed within a society and losing the independent identity. I do not see that assimilation and insularity are opposite poles. Obviously minority religious status has a significant impact on the form of integration, as does the nature of the role that the majority religion plays in the public sphere (even if the role of religion is played by militant secularism). But I’ll not bump it. I’ll just sulk with Rune and his Hannah Arendt writings. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/208 "2004-12-21T09:00:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **dougie\_monty** , I do see the issue–and it is one that Catholic immigrants to the U.S. and the Amish of the Midwest have wrestled with (and continue to do so). I was simply puzzled by what I understood to be your comment that someone on this thread had proposed (from the outside) that efforts be made for the Jews to be assimilated. The discussion to which you linked is the natural _internal_ discussion that each group faces when a minority group attempts to be accepted by the surrounding majority. > > I agree that the issue is a pertinent one for any group (and that there have, indeed, been outsiders (_e.g._,the late and not exactly lamented **John John** ) who have suggested that the Jews would be accepted if they just stopped being Jewish). Well, there was a case in point–an _extreme_ case in point: Adolf Eichmann, himself Jewish. He carried that concept to its (ghastly) conclusion. ☹ And British statesman Benjamin Disraeli would not have been allowed to serve in Parliament–let alone be Prime Minister–unless he renounced his religion. (Felix Mendelssohn and Heinrich Heine did likewise, but for different reasons.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/209 "2004-12-21T09:40:41Z")
Eichmann was _not_ Jewish. I don’t know where you got that from. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/210 "2004-12-21T10:03:53Z")
Do you really think that a Jew could have been one of the highest leaders in the Nazi regime? There were some Jews in the Nazi army and SS…there’s an interesting book about this, I forget what it’s called. But there were no Nazi leaders with any Jewish blood, as far as I know. Whether or not Hitler was part-Jewish is debateable (a lot of people insist that it’s true, because it’s more appealing to believe a dubious fact if it adds more mystery and intrigue to a well-known and infamous historical figure.) > [@](#): > > See though, not having destructive steryotypes does indeed contribute to social justice. Is being “clannish” really a destructive stereotype? As far as I’m concerned all it means is “looking out for your own.” Whether the Jews actually are “clannish,” I don’t know. Some are, some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/211 "2004-12-21T15:18:47Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > And British statesman Benjamin Disraeli would not have been allowed to serve in Parliament–let alone be Prime Minister–unless he renounced his religion. Disraeli didn’t convert in order to take a seat in Parliament. He converted to Christianity along with the rest of his family when he was 13, after his father had a fairly long and bitter dispute with his synagogue (Bevis Marks, the oldest synagogue in England) over money they said he owed them. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/212 "2004-12-21T20:32:59Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Disraeli didn’t convert in order to take a seat in Parliament. He converted to Christianity along with the rest of his family when he was 13, after his father had a fairly long and bitter dispute with his synagogue (Bevis Marks, the oldest synagogue in England) over money they said he owed them. All right, all right…I acknowledge the correction about Disraeli. Eichmann is another story. I stand by my statement since I got the information that he was Jewish from a German national who served in the Nazi Army. I myself had found it difficult to countenance the fact that a Jew could go along with Hitler’s monstrous notions. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/213 "2004-12-21T20:53:18Z")
Eichmann was raised as a Lutheran, and was an atheist as an adult. He wasn’t Jewish, and didn’t have any Jewish ancestry (The SS made you prove you didn’t have any Jewish ancestors dating back to at least 1750). As far as I know, no one except for your friend even claimed that Eichmann had Jewish ancestry. Are you sure you’re not thinking of Heydrich? There were unfounded rumors that he had Jewish ancestors. There’s no evidence that that’s true, though. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/214 "2004-12-21T21:05:53Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Eichmann was raised as a Lutheran, and was an atheist as an adult. He wasn’t Jewish, and didn’t have any Jewish ancestry (The SS made you prove you didn’t have any Jewish ancestors dating back to at least 1750). As far as I know, no one except for your friend even claimed that Eichmann had Jewish ancestry. > > Are you sure you’re not thinking of Heydrich? There were unfounded rumors that he had Jewish ancestors. There’s no evidence that that’s true, though. No, this German specifically referred to Eichmann–and he never mentioned Herydrich; and I have no idea who Heydrich was. Kurt knew that I knew who Eichmann was–same as Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/215 "2004-12-21T22:54:26Z")
Ok, then I’m saying that Kurt was wrong, unless either you or he can provide evidence to back up your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/216 "2004-12-21T23:45:55Z")
From the Eichmann trial transcript: > [@](#): > > Adolf Eichmann (full name: Otto Adolf Eichmann - T/37, p. 3), born in 1906 in Solingen in the Rhineland in Germany, the first-born son of his father Adolf Karl Eichmann, and his mother, Maria, nee Schefferling. His father, a devout Evangelical Christian, was a bookkeeper in the local electricity company. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/217 "2004-12-22T08:59:49Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Ok, then I’m saying that Kurt was wrong, unless either you or he can provide evidence to back up your statement. Well, Captain, considering that documentation you presented in your subsequent post, I would have to back down. As for Kurt, I can’t discuss this with him–he died about 15 years ago. I confess to having nothing else to offer in the matter.–dougie\_monty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711.md?page=10)