# Why do people hate Jews? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711 "2004-12-08T06:58:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/121 "2004-12-14T21:17:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …you have provided nothing to support your claim that Jews are more prone to this (insularity) than any other group. > [@Abe](#): > > Nor do I have to, since that is not my contention. > [@Abe](#): > > (_earlier in this same thread_, post#91) Relative to other ethnic grups, Jews are cohesive and insular, for whatever reasons you wish to posit. Quite some selective memory loss you have going there. Still nothing but a shopworn stereotype to cite? I see. I’m familiar with the Emory thread you cited previously, but don’t recall a single instance where anyone participating in it said that criticism of Israel was equivalent to anti-Semitism. Care to point us to an example? > [@](#): > > Sure, but I’m not digging at all, you’re furiously shovelling a trench all around me without much discernible effect, at least that I can see. This is a depressingly familiar line (i.e. “I didn’t do anything, it’s your fault for making me look bad.”) I recall one former poster (who will mercifully remain nameless), who did an extended riff on “Jews control the media”. When called upon by me for documentation, his response was to cut and paste an erroneous and misleading diatribe from an Aryan Brotherhood-type website. When he was subsequently outed for this, a large part of his defense was that it was my fault for goading him into it. Pitiful defense then, pitiful now. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/122 "2004-12-14T21:33:23Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > There must have been an element of “Scapegoatism” to it over the years. A lot of hatred of Israel/Zion and America in Saudi Arabia seems to be a way to distract the populace from their bad lot. I can easily imagine this being the case in Europe and Russia way back when, probably even ancient Egypt. > > People: “We’re hungry, we need work and food” > Rulers: "It’s those damned Jews. " This reminds me of a line in an old Berenstain book: “Blaming Everything on the Atom Bomb” Wife: “Sure is hot today!” Husband: “On account of the atom bomb.” * * * Son: “Some rain!” Father: “Atom Bomb.” * * * Daughter: “Cat had kittens!” Father “Atom Bomb.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/123 "2004-12-15T06:17:45Z")
Okay **Tom** , by now **Abe** has made his position quite clear. Jews are more insular than pretty much any other ethnicity. More than the Chinese, Japanese, or Hindus, than the Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, than Native Americans or Cubans, than Sunni or Sikh, maybe more than any group except the Romani. Evidence? He don’t need no stinkin’ evidence. It just gets in the way of a good stereotype. Never mind the historical integration of Jews into other societies whenever allowed to do so, from the early years in the Ukraine, to peaks of tolerence in Arab lands, to Italy before they created the ghetto, to Germany just before the war, to France, to America throughout its history back to colonial days fighting in the Revolutionary War, to … nah, he knows what he knows because he knows it. Afterall, if Jews weren’t insular they would have embraced the Greek way of life instead of uniting behind the Macabees and beating off the Syrian Hellenites. They would have embraced the Roman way of life instead of having two failed rebellions and getting themselves mostly killed off and having the survivors scattered into slavery. If they weren’t insular they would have become whatever religion was around them throughout the ages instead of actually observing tenets of their faith. Their very continued existence as an extant identity is proof of their insularity. And now he veers into the arguments that Jews are crying antisemitism against any criticism of Israel. Hoo boy. He keeps good company with his arguments don’t he? Jews have special protections, not like those poor unprotected Christians and boo hoo, no protection against those “anti-white”. No one advocates for Christian perspectives in today’s world and pity the White Christian and his myriad persecutions. Still think he and **Jack** are just talking past one another but really not very far off? I could have been convinced of that if he had quickly recognized where he had just blindly accepted a false stereotype and instead discussed the ways in which an individual minority identity fosters the distrust of the majority. I think he instead illustrates how well meaning individuals help contribute to persistent antisemitism by the sincere but stubborn belief in false stereotypes. God save from us from freinds like these. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/124 "2004-12-15T08:43:04Z")
I don’t think that is a fair characterisation of **Abe’s** argument at all. Firstly there is no great slander in identifying a group as insular, or some synonym thereof. Next, **Abe** is upbraided on account of missing ‘evidence’. Yet questions of ‘insularity’ necessarily rely on ancedotal & historical evidence. That is what was provided. **DSeid** also states: > [@](#): > > Their very continued existence as an extant identity is proof of their insularity. Doubtless this is meant ironically, but in fact if you view the question clinically, there is no apparent flaw in this observation. Lastly let’s take the question of the blind stereotype: What evidence can be presented to discount “insularity” both present and historical: Why, it’s that familiar anecdotal and historical evidence. Hatred, isolation, whatever: these are _qualities_ unable to be measured and reduced to an empirical sum. Consequently, this is an argument that cannot be aided by appeals to an impossible standard of proof. So devotion notwithstanding, I don’t believe there has been a serious rebuttal to **Abe**. Not that I agree with his/her argument, mind. In this case I think the less eloquent posts have been closer. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/125 "2004-12-15T09:09:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Jackmannii > …you have provided nothing to support your claim that Jews are more prone to this (insularity) than any other group. > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Abe > Nor do I have to, since that is not my contention. > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Abe > (earlier in this same thread, post#91) Relative to other ethnic grups, Jews are cohesive and insular, for whatever reasons you wish to posit. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Quite some selective memory loss you have going there. Well jack, you really do walk into these things. I rather wonder if you are engaged in some wishful thinking. Do you _really_ think I wasn’t aware of what I’ve been arguing in considerable detail for days? The whole point here is that _you aren’t_. And your choice when experiencing a deficit of full awareness of a discussion, rather than ask for explanations, is to thunder in obnoxious indignation and cast unsupported accusations. When the inapplicability of such is pointed out time and time again, you presume to instruct me. Let’s take a look at the real, complete extract involved, as opposed to your selective and convenient quotes hastily presented: > [@Abe](#): > > as Jack himself pointed out but has since glossed over, systematic discrimination of a group often results in a contraction. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > For the last time, while **members of any group subjected to discrimination will band together for protection** , you have provided nothing to support your claim that Jews are more prone to this than any other group. My emphasis. I replied as presented above and also in considerably greater detail that you systematically ignore in preference for gnawing on one particular word. In your recent quoted response (where you, incredibly, managed to take your own words out of context) you falsely presented the argument as one explicitly of insularity, whereas I have been talking about factors contributing to relative cohesiveness and insularity and perceptions thereof. More importantly, regarding the claim you falsely ascribe to me “that Jews are more prone to [banding together for protection when subjected to discrimination] than any other group” _I don’t have to support any such thing_ because I never claimed it. The closest items I have claimed to that are explained and supported in my lengthier responses to Dseid, and previously in my vain attempts to hold a dialogue with you. In this particular deficit of your understanding, the issue is not so much that “Jews are more prone to this than any other group”, but that they have been subjected to _higher_ degrees of discrimination for _longer_ than any other group (or just about), with obvious results and perceptions throughout the ages, as already discussed. You’ll remember I also cited tribalistic tendencies such as fear of “otherness” to explain why Jews were discriminated against; therefore, rigorous preservation of one’s culture in a host culture (which might certainly be termed cohesiveness if not insularity) is bound to attract attention and quite likely discrimination. We see much the same thing happening with Muslim immigrants today in Europe, for example. They too want to preserve their culture and religion, and sometimes even amplify them to compensate for living in an alien environment. They will frequently live in ethnic concentrations in specific quarters and districts. This can make them the target of discrimination, particularly in emancipated European societies with high rates of Muslim immigration, where people take a less than kind view on particular expressions of extremism such as covering a woman from head to toe and restricting her rights. Of course, all this according to you (and apparently also to the increasingly jack-like Deseid) is to be filed under the heading “shopworn stereotype” and vigorously negated because, oh, it must all be anti-Jewish slurs. (An interesting topic of discussion might be the Chinese immigrants who set up “Chinatowns” in so many cities, I wonder if they might be more cohesive and insular relatively speaking, perhaps owing to a long tradition of isolation of China from the rest of the world. Just an idea.) > [@](#): > > I’m familiar with the Emory thread you cited previously, but don’t recall a single instance where anyone participating in it said that criticism of Israel was equivalent to anti-Semitism. Care to point us to an example? At the very least, you have to agree that I provided two out of three items you requested, and I note that you used the term “OR” when phrasing your request. To be honest I can’t remember where I’ve seen the charge last on these boards, but I am fairly certain I have seen it. Hard thing to hunt around for, however, not found it. > [@](#): > > This is a depressingly familiar line (i.e. “I didn’t do anything, it’s your fault for making me look bad.”) The whole point was that I am not looking bad. I really don’t see how your desperate snipping at my ankles could make me look bad. Stop trying so hard to define other people’s positions and arguments for them. > [@](#): > > I recall one former poster (who will mercifully remain nameless), who did an extended riff on “Jews control the media”. When called upon by me for documentation, his response was to cut and paste an erroneous and misleading diatribe from an Aryan Brotherhood-type website. When he was subsequently outed for this, a large part of his defense was that it was my fault for goading him into it. > > Pitiful defense then, pitiful now. Amusing Jack, and as an added bonus also a good example of your techniques in this thread. Let me explain a few differences between your view of this thread and what is actually happening. You seem to think I’m digging a hole for myself, all based on your (and DSeid’s) forced interpretation of one word I used among thousands more, that you think must automatically signal anti-semitism. I explained as much. I repeated it, then explained it some more. I elaborated. I provided supporting arguments (I notice by the way neither you nor DSeid had anything meaningful with which to invalidate the supported claim that Israeli policy is linked to rises in anti-semitism, a claim you originally derided quite explicitly). I provided examples from other cultures and religions, suggesting that in no way do I think the Jews are in a unique position (except perhaps with regards to the simultaneity in identity of religion and ethnicity). I discussed historical context. Basically, whatever you brought up, I discussed it in some considerable detail. Your response has been, every single time, to ignore the bulk ofmy arguments, to paint me with your clumsy brush, to focus on one word or phrase instead of the much more elaborate materials I have provided. Therefore I am not digging a hole here, you are the one trying to dig me into a hole for whatever perceived slight you are deluding yourself into thinking justifies your “objections”. You’re not goading me into anything, I assure you. **Dseid** seems to have been trying to do that for days now, and even his relatively more sophisticated attempts still seem rather obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/126 "2004-12-15T09:36:53Z")
**DSeid** , that last post of yours doesn’t merit a comment, being as it is a collection of indignant misinterpretation and derisive denial, and not any kind of refutation; I am thankful to **Sevastopol** for pointing out the problems that didn’t seem immediately obvious to you. I’ll just note again that you are investing most of your energy in attempts to ascribe to me arguments I do not actually make and positions I do not hold. Since the word “insular” is bothering you so much – apparently in **and** out of any context possible – would you like to suggest a replacement to describe the distinctly cohesive tradition and identity of Judaism and jewish culture, and the fact that strongly discriminated/harrassed groups tend to contract, and so forth, as described at length, summarized by **Tom** , etc.? Keep the context of the original usage in mind too please. It was easy enough three pages ago to make such a suggestion, yet you and Jack chose the combative-nagging route instead. I’m open to reasonable suggestions if you actually have any to make. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/127 "2004-12-15T10:19:48Z")
I read the entire thread with great interest. It seems that the goal of many responders is to confuse the picture with a generous use of …insular…ethnic…culture…secular. Abe, one of the fabric ingredients of anti- semetism is the ethnicity, culture and religious practices of the Jews…that they didn’t toss their beliefs and assimilate into the people surrounding them? How can someone legitimately hate Jews because they encourage learning and education? Perhaps they hang out together because it is more interesting to talk about science, medicine, politics that to someone who doesn’t know who the vice president of the US happens to be…Many of we Jews are not religious at all…I don’t know what you mean by ethnicity or even culture…Why don’t you define these terms for us and tell me how any of these aspects may contribute to antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/128 "2004-12-15T11:10:55Z")
**MadSam** , no one at all is saying that it is justified to hate Jews because of [insert reason]. The discussion here is to attempt to explain _why_ there is a long-standing trend to hate the jews, and, to a lesser extent, explain changes in this trend. Absolutely no justification is implied, suggested, or even hinted at when discussing any of the possible reasons, causes, and triggers for discrimination, be they rational or irrational. There’s no real acceptable reason for bigoted behaviour, which is in fact defined as _unreasonably_ prejudiced or intolerant. This has been mentioned over a dozen times. Now, regarding definitions, are you being quite serious? I can’t tell. These words don’t _confuse_ the picture, they help to explore it. Ethnic: of a social group having common national or cultural tradition; denoting origin by birth of descent rather than nationality (e.g., Ethnic Albanians, Roma, Jews) Culture: the customs, traditions, history, civilizations, and achievements of a particular social group or people. Religion: a particular system of faith and worship. Jew: (not that I need to tell you but anyway) a person of Hebrew descent AND/OR whose religion is Judaism Judaism: a world religion. It is used much less commonly – and not by me since I think such use is erroneous – to refer to the Jews collectively. Secular: not spiritual or sacred; not concerned or involved with religion or religious belief. Used in this thread to refer to secular jewish movements. Cohesion: tendency to cohere, which means to remain united, physically or metaphorically. Insular: of or resembling an island; separated or removed from its immediate surroundings, again physically or metaphorically. This term seems to have been causing the problem, and I have invited suggestions for a replacement. For any others, I suggest [www.dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com) ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/129 "2004-12-15T12:22:36Z")
Using the definitions you gave above, what traditions do we secular Jews follow? What culture am I employing in my day to day life? I would like to know how these sources cause hostile irrational feeling against Jews. Please offer me some examples. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/130 "2004-12-15T12:36:19Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > Using the definitions you gave above, what traditions do we secular Jews follow? What culture am I employing in my day to day life? > > I would like to know how these sources cause hostile irrational feeling against Jews. Please offer me some examples. Sure, didn’t you post a while back that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/131 "2004-12-15T14:52:12Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > Do you _really_ think I wasn’t aware of what I’ve been arguing in considerable detail for days? Frankly, it’s either that (the charitable explanation) or simply denial of your remarks in the hopes that no one will notice. Either way, it’s bizarre. > [@](#): > > Of course, all this according to you (and apparently also to the increasingly jack-like Deseid) is to be filed under the heading “shopworn stereotype” and vigorously negated because, oh, it must all be anti-Jewish slurs. For someone who claims an extensive knowledge of Jewish history, you must also be aware that the stereotype in question is a historical slur that has been used to justify predjudice and discrimination. It is not something **DSeid** and I made up to harass you. It is part and parcel of the unreasoning ugliness anti-Semites have been making use of for many generations. Educate yourself. Argument by anecdote and/or vague references to ancient Roman times is not going to cut it. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m familiar with the Emory thread you cited previously, but don’t recall a single instance where anyone participating in it said that criticism of Israel was equivalent to anti-Semitism. Care to point us to an example? > [@Abe](#): > > To be honest I can’t remember where I’ve seen the charge last on these boards, but I am fairly certain I have seen it. Hard thing to hunt around for, however, not found it. To give you credit, this is about the only honest thing you’ve posted lately. Odds are though that you will soon be repeating this claim in other threads. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/132 "2004-12-15T17:04:02Z")
And here we go again, the snippet-reply that unsurprisingly fails to address the arguments presented, and instead attempts to to denigrate my efforts at a discussion that some might consider too sensitive. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Frankly, it’s either that (the charitable explanation) or simply denial of your remarks in the hopes that no one will notice. False dilemma my good Jack, yet another one of the fallacies your style in this thread seems to mandate. I don’t argue “hoping” anything, I attempt to use, you know, arguments. I strongly suspected you would reply as you did previously, and explained my position in the paragraphs subsequent to the bit your quote. > [@](#): > > Either way, it’s bizarre. For someone who claims an extensive knowledge of Jewish history, Where is that claim? I have claimed nothing of the sort, I have merely addressed arguments and issues as they developed. But I am gratified that my lengthy and clearly erudite treatments have conveyed to you the impression of a special claim to knowledge. > [@](#): > > you must also be aware that the stereotype in question is a historical slur that has been used to justify predjudice and discrimination. Here is where I must emphasize once again: I am not especially interested in how this claim has been used when I make the decision to discuss it. I am certainly sympathetic to the discrimination Jews have endured – it would be downright disingenuous to read my prose and conclude otherwise – but just because something has been used as a slur (no matter for how long) does not render it out of bounds in a debate. If you think I am engaged in hate speech, by all means hit the report button, as I think that would be against the rules. > [@](#): > > It is not something **DSeid** and I made up to harass you. It is part and parcel of the unreasoning ugliness anti-Semites have been making use of for many generations. Educate yourself. Any chance I get. I know this particular slur is not something you have made up to harrass me, but I have already argued that it is something you latch on to as a result of what appears to be particular sensitivity to the subject, and thus harrass me. The human drive to form patterns and connections. A mentality that makes one suspect slurs where none are intended. Here’s another one you’ll like: Shakespeare and Dickens both wrote Jewish characters with a primary trait of usurious materialism: this is consistent with historical reality. > [@](#): > > Argument by anecdote and/or vague references to ancient Roman times is not going to cut it. Me, argue by anecdote? Where? That is a somewhat rare occurrence, almost as rare as argument by analogy. By “vague reference to Roman times” I assume you mean the previous discussions (rather clear, I thought) that you have not addressed, where I commented on the historical origins and development through the ages of the matter we are discussing… or at least, that I am trying to discuss. > [@](#): > > To give you credit, this is about the only honest thing you’ve posted lately. > Odds are though that you will soon be repeating this claim in other threads. Odds based on what – your offended sensibilities? Or are you a prophet now? Deep down you know that your assesment of my honesty is off the mark. I’ve been so honest in this thread (and all the others of course) that I am drawing fire by openly discussing something you keep trying to render off-limits on the weak basis that it’s been used to discriminate. At best that is an ancillary argument requiring a stronger companion, and at worst it is a lazy unwarranted dismissal. It’s not my honesty that is in question, I note again that I have openly addressed practically everything that’s been thrown at me so far. Should you want to engage in a bit of constructive behaviour, any suggestions for a better term to replace “relatively insular”? You don’t seem to have issues with its cousin “cohesive” so that at least is a pause for breath. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/133 "2004-12-15T17:14:22Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > Using the definitions you gave above, what traditions do we secular Jews follow? What culture am I employing in my day to day life? > > I would like to know how these sources cause hostile irrational feeling against Jews. Please offer me some examples. Well, in relative terms secular Jews in host cultures tend to attract less attention and are open to greater integration than, for example, Orthodox Jews. This would suggest a minimization of the appearance of “otherness” that is one of the common bases of discrimination. I’m not sure though if there is a corresponding drop in discrimination for secular Jews, that is an interesting question. Here is [The Wikipedia entry of secular Jewish culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Jewish_culture). You must also remember that my arguments absolutely do not claim that Jews (or any other group) do anything to _earn_ discrimination, which you seem to be suggesting I am saying. We are, as I have said time and time again, talking about ignorance, fear, and/or perception in addition to verifiable facts. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/134 "2004-12-15T17:15:59Z")
Over and over people present this theory or that to explain anti-Semitism; over and over, each has sizable holes blown into it, either from empirical observations to the contrary or on grounds of internal inconsistency. As a gentile who has had countless Jewish friends, associates, and acquaintances, I personally believe that the one thing that can safely be said about Jews and Jewish culture is that _nothing about them is, ultimately, out of bounds for debate, argument, or contradiction._ In other words, Jews frustrate the living crap out of their detractors by being more or less impossible to stereotype. Whadyathink? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/135 "2004-12-15T17:37:23Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > I’ve been so honest in this thread (and all the others of course) that I am drawing fire by openly discussing something you keep trying to render off-limits on the weak basis that it’s been used to discriminate. Right. Only weaklings and sniveling cowards try to comprehend ethnic sensibilities and avoid offensive stereotyping on the basis of nothing more than personal predjudice. It takes a bold fellow like **Abe** to cast aside these bourgeois values and call a spade a spade, as it were. High marks for your expose of the “insularity”, “tribalism” and “usurious materialism” of Jews. We look forward to similar riveting accounts of the vague but undeniable-because-I-say-so historical bases justifying continued reference to the laziness of black people, the urge for world subservience to the Pope among Catholics, stupidity of Poles etc. If you really have any true concern that others might think you a bigot, consider that if you persist in talking the talk, it will inevitably be concluded that you walk the walk. Your choice. > [@Abe](#): > > I note again that I have openly addressed practically everything that’s been thrown at me so far. The bill for replacing my busted irony meter will be in the mail. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/136 "2004-12-15T18:30:26Z")
So you’re not here to debate the question but to attack any slight on Jews, no matter how imaginary? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/137 "2004-12-15T18:39:53Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > So you’re not here to debate the question but to attack any slight on Jews, no matter how imaginary? I will overlook your obviously not having read or retained previous discussion in this thread (and the are-you-still-beating-your-wife tone), to note that 1) it is entirely within the scope of this debate to refute false and misleading stereotypes that contribute to bigotry, and 2) it is not up to **sevastopol** to decide what constitutes a “slight”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/138 "2004-12-15T18:48:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > 1. it is entirely within the scope of this debate to refute false and misleading stereotypes that contribute to bigotry, > > and 2) it is not up to **sevastopol** to decide what constitutes a “slight”. No it’s not. The discussion in part concerns the causes and effects of reputed Jewish traits. It carries on merrily without policing when discussion of the traits veers towards the notion that some of that reputation may be well founded. Slights: Who claims a more valid opinion than mine? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/139 "2004-12-15T19:25:16Z")
**sev** , when someone repeats the old charge of the antisemite that Jews stick together and stay apart from the rest of society, it is reasonable to expect that some of us will react with “Dem’s fightin’ words.” More appropriate to GD, to react with “either defend the statement or withdraw it.” “Cohesive” literally means sticks together. “Insular”? Well let’s go to [bb]Abe\*\*'s preferred [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) > [@](#): > > 11 entries found for insular. > Entry: insular > Part of Speech: adjective > Definition: narrow-minded > Synonyms: alone, bigoted, circumscribed, closed, confined, contracted, cut off, detached, illiberal, inward-looking, isolated, limited, narrow, parochial, petty, prejudiced, provincial, restricted, secluded, separate, separated, sequestered, small-town > Source: Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) > Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > > Entry: clannish > Part of Speech: adjective > Definition: exclusive > Synonyms: akin, alike, associative, cliquish, close, insular, like, narrow, related, reserved, restricting, restrictive, sectarian, selective, unfriendly, unreceptive > Antonyms: accepting, broad-minded, friendly, open, welcoming > Source: Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) > Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. So **Abe** said that Jews stick together and stay apart, in fancier wrods perhaps, but the charge translates to clanishness. No more or less. And **Abe** went farther than merely saying that Jews were insular, he claimed that they are more insular than nearly any other ethnic group. If he has defended that statement with facts or citations I have missed it. But let me turn this around. I will take the responsibility of positing the converse. Jewish culture is among the _least_ insular of cultures in the world and has been for nearly two thousand years. It is the antithesis of insularity. Jews have always been actively involved in the cultural life of the societies in which they have lived to whatever degree they have been allowed. In numbers disproportionate to their population they have often been at the leading edge of arts, music, and literature, and of the sciences as well. If you need me to provide a list of Jewish scholars and artists of the Islamic and Western worlds throughout history I can easily do so, if such is required. Many Jews came to Rome in the second century as slaves and Sicily in particular had a large population until banished by the Inquisition. They lived peacefully taking on many of the ways of others in the area, including a heavy Arab influence when under Muslim rule. Probelms in Italy began with Jews escaping to their from other lands were persecution was higher (Spain and Germany at the time) - Threatened by the influx, the authorities in Venice mandated a special walled quarter to contain the immigrants - near an old cannon foundry, the Italian word for foundry was _ghetto_, and the concept of isolating Jews was born Pope Paul IV issued a decree mandating Jews live in isolated quarters throughout the papal state forty years later. Jewish culture itself is an amalgam of other cultural ideas absorbed and transformed. Far from being insular, Jews have sought out the ideas of other cultures and host societies. They have traveled with those ideas and transformed them in the new domains of other cultures to great effect. Jewish music is a mixture of music from other cultures intermixed with each other and ancient Jewish elements as well. Klezmer was nothing more than integrating European folk styles with Jewish influences and later adding Jazz to the mix. Other Jewish music reflects other cultural influences. Food? Most of what is considered Jewish food is food that was traditional of another culture at another time that has been preserved, albeit transformed, in Jewish culture. Jews have historically had more of a presence in more societies than any other cultural group. Jews travelled along the Silk Road and settled in India, Bucharest, and India … absorbing cultural influences along the way. They coexisted in both the Islamic and European worlds throughout Midieval times and were often the only conduit for ideas between the two worlds; they participated in those cultures to the full extent that the societies allowed them to, barring giving up their religion. No other cultural group was as much a part of the ideas of the world as a whole. Jews were part of American life from pre-revolutionary times onward and were as integrated as possible. America was in fact the first country in which Jews wrecieved equal rights. The wave of Jewish immgrants to America in the beginning of the 20th century found a country that allowed them to participate in the culture like no where else, and participate in American cultural life they did - bringing their accumulated travel trunks of the world’s ideas to places like Hollywood and achieving mightily as a result. Not only participating in the culture but contributing to new common culture as well. How many other cultures can you name with as non-insular of a pedigreed? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711/140 "2004-12-15T19:29:28Z")
That second India should have been China, but you get the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-jews/278711.md?page=8)