Why do people hate math so much?

[Half_Man_Half_Wit]

@amanset

There is no “sounding right” in arithmetic. There is “right” and “wrong”.

But that’s not the question (or rather, it is only because of convention). In any given subfield of music, it is just as well possible to be objectively right or wrong – a wrong note is a wrong note, no two ways about it. Yet music is not exhausted by just considering any of its subfields, and consequently is not taught that way. Similarly, maths is not exhausted by doing arithmetic*, but is taught as if there were god-given rules to adhere to. But mathematics only becomes interesting when you start to work with, rather than within, the rules – when you invent new ones, bend, perhaps even break, existing ones, in short, be creative. That creativity is expressly forbidden in maths class.

The rules of today are only there because somebody, at some point, invented them, made them up – and they are still around because other people thought them interesting.

Anyway, this is probably not the place for a debate (uh, though I just now notice that we have in fact moved to ‘Great Debates’, which rather undercuts the point I was going to make about the rules that have been made up for this particular forum prohibiting debate – but also strengthens my point that interesting things only happen if occasionally you change the rules to work with), perhaps you’d enjoy reading Lockhart’s essay…

*Let’s not talk about Gödel numberings right now…

[amanset]

@Half_Man_Half_Wit

But that’s not the question (or rather, it is only because of convention). In any given subfield of music, it is just as well possible to be objectively right or wrong – a wrong note is a wrong note, no two ways about it. Yet music is not exhausted by just considering any of its subfields, and consequently is not taught that way. Similarly, maths is not exhausted by doing arithmetic*, but is taught as if there were god-given rules to adhere to. But mathematics only becomes interesting when you start to work with, rather than within, the rules – when you invent new ones, bend, perhaps even break, existing ones, in short, be creative. That creativity is expressly forbidden in maths class.

That’s because there are very real world applications to basic arithmetic that even back in the 70s, when I was at primary school, we used to deal with. One orange costs 10p, how much do seven oranges cost? What change do you get from one pound.

There is no simple application to the real world of “creative” mathematics.

That’s the difference. With music you can just tinkle, not knowing what you are doing, and still do great things. Bands have formed with minimal music experience and gone on to great things and brought pleasure to the world.

I’m saying you can’t do that with maths/arithmetic. Not in any meaningful way. Yes you can redefine the + operator and the set you are working in, so 2+2 actually equals 4, but not only does that not help the kids in any way, they still need some basic things to do that. What is an operator? What is a set? With music it is “press that button on a piano”. See the difference?

[JohnT]

@MsRobyn

I think a lot of the problem is that math is often taught with no context. Instead of explaining why this or that concept is useful, textbooks and teachers confront students with pages of equations that are completely stripped of any context or application. In my adult life, I’ve found some higher math useful, but had I known about possible applications in high school, I would have liked math more and found it easier.

However, word problems (problems that supply the context that you’re talking about) are among the most detested types of questions for almost all high school students. So even when the context is supplied, people don’t like it.

[fumster]

I think there are three kinds of people:

1. People who understand and appreciate math from the abstract level. I think that is a skill, like being able to draw or sing on-pitch that only a sub-set of people have.

2. People who understand math in a more concrete manner as it relates to solving real problems.

3. Stupid people who will never get it.

The important think is not to mix up teachers in one group with kids from another.

I remember being taught about “slope” in HS. WTF did that have to do with anything? Later in Calculus I learned that the slope of a line at any one point yields acceleration if you graph speed vs time. That was the point at which it clicked. A real world example would have helped me enormously in HS.

[Mighty_Mouse]

@JohnT

However, word problems (problems that supply the context that you’re talking about) are among the most detested types of questions for almost all high school students. So even when the context is supplied, people don’t like it.

Word problems bring in reading comprehension into the problems that the student has with the underlying math. And some of the word problems can be really confusing. Don’t know how many times I have seen students successfully argue that the way they interpreted the question is a reasonable one. Sometimes quite humorously.

[MsRobyn]

@amanset

Read what I wrote about “sounding right”. Music can “sound right” despite it not being absolutely correct as far as musical theory goes.

There is no “sounding right” in arithmetic. There is “right” and “wrong”.

The answers may be right or wrong, but what hangs most people up is the process by which those answers are derived. And if you’re looking at an equation like this: ax[sup]2[/sup]+bx+c=0, and you’re not all that confident in your ability to solve it, it’s going to intimidate the hell out of you. (Yes, my example is the quadratic equation, but my point is generalizable to other areas of mathematics.) Practice does help, but a) if your teacher can’t explain to you how to solve it in the first place because he doesn’t understand what he’s doing, (which is more common than you’d think), and b) you don’t know how to apply this to the real world, you’re not going to bother to learn it, which means that c) you’re going to know it just long enough to pass the test, and you’re not going to give a tin shit about math and will do almost anything to avoid it in the future.

However, by having 1) people who understand what they’re doing and who know how to teach it, and 2) more cooperation between science and math classes, then 3) Opal will learn to like math, or at least she’ll find it less of a struggle.

[WhyNot]

I thought for years I hated math(s), until I had a couple of really good teachers AND it became relevant to me. Now, I’ve never made it beyond trig, and really don’t remember any of that - I’m just talking up to College Algebra here.

Some of it is scary sounding terms. Do you have any idea how much “Dimensional Analysis for Medication Dosing” scares baby nurslings? It does, a lot. I refused to learn it for a year, preferring to stay nice and safe with algebra. Only I failed a few math tests, and failing a math test in nursing class is bad enough - getting the answer wrong when it’s an actual patient is a much bigger problem!

Turns out “Dimensional Analysis” is “conversion factors”…well, sheeeeeit! I know how to do conversion factors! That’s that fun little game with numbers Mrs. L. taught us in Chemistry class! Now I know what it’s actually FOR, in a real world sense I’ll use every day. It’s a whole lot faster and has built in error checks, eliminates rounding error and has only two rules - unlike using algebra. But I still hear “Dimensional Analysis” and think it must be some arcane super hard stuff that only Engineers use.

I’ll never forget the day in Algebra when I realized that I could figure out how to make the largest vegetable garden possible with a fixed amount of fencing against the side of a garage. Not an intuitive practical application, the way most teachers teach it. But one that I have actually done in real life, and far easier and more accurate than moving around a bunch of fencing for an afternoon!

For some talented people, the practical stuff isn’t fun. I get that. It’s no different than any other specialty. I’m sure Van Gough wasn’t all that thrilled when it was time to paint his living room, either. I find sewing a period costume much more satisfying than sewing a t-shirt, too. But for most of us, knowing when we’ll, as the kids say, Actually Use This Stuff, and having it presented in terms that don’t terrify us is going to go over much better.

However, until college, I hated “word problems”. Why? Because some of them are just horribly written. But also because I wasn’t administering medications or building gardens when I was in Elementary School. I wasn’t even calculating tips, much less figuring out when two trains would pass each other! The only honest answer to “When am I ever going to use this stuff?” when you’re 10 is, “Later.”

[Broomstick]

@Simplicio

Most people get at least 6 years of math in school beyond the basic arithmetic that gets covered in elementary school. If you like math (as I do), thats a good thing, but if you start out not liking it, or being anxious about your abilities in it, then six years is a long time to have to suffer.

I think attributing it to “anxiety” is much too simplistic, at least in my case. I don’t have test anxiety. I have no problems with tests. It’s just that math is hard for me, plain and simple. It takes me longer than average to learn stuff in math, I seem to have to work harder at it, and I usually don’t solve problems as fast as average. That doesn’t mean I can’t do it, and once I learn an operation I can do it reliably. What I know in math I have confidence in being able to do, I just do not enjoy math. Period.

I have a sister who took six years of calculus in college and two of statistics. Because she found it fun. She enjoyed. Good for her. I never will, not because I can’t do it, or am anxious about tests (which I’m not) but because it’s not something I have much talent for and there are so many other things in like I find so much easier and more enjoyable to do in comparison.

Here’s another analogy: my spouse does not like to read. Now, when I tell people that they often think he can’t read, which is not true. He easily reads on a collegiate level. He just does not enjoy reading. He’d much rather get his entertainment, and even information, in audiovisual form. He’s more comfortable with that. Given a choice between that and reading, reading will always be second. Again, this is not from inability to read, or lack of confidence in reading skill, it’s just not something he enjoys doing in and of itself. He learned to read at a high level because it is a very useful skill to have, not because he likes to read. Because he finds no enjoyment in it he doesn’t read as fast as someone who reads every day, and he did struggle with some aspects of it growing up, but there is no way to say he’s dyslexic or whatever, he just doesn’t enjoy it.

Likewise, I can do math. I just don’t enjoy it. It’s an extremely useful tool, but I find nothing in it to enjoy.

I think sometimes those who really like math just can’t accept that some of us really have no fondness for it whatsoever.

[Larry_Borgia]

I don’t think the music analogy goes very far. People can understand and appreciate music without knowing a thing about it. You don’t have to understand the realtionships between the notes to find a melody pleasing and most people prefer simple catchy melodies over difficult complex ones.

Unlike music, math is wholly abstract. The notation is all there is. Sure there are real world applications, but those applications can’t be understood until you understand the math itself. Trying to do applications first, math second is just going to confuse students even more.

Unfortunately I don’t think there’s any really better general approach than the one we have now. Unless you’re one of a tiny handful of very gifted children you need to learn basic skills before you can understand more complex concepts. You can’t learn Calculus wtihout basic Algebra.

The two main problems with learning math are:

1. It is taught in a “one size fits all” method where a bunch of kids have a teacher talk at them. Ideally it should be learned one-on-one or in small groups where explanations can be tailored to the student.

2. It is first introduced by elementary school teachers, many of whom are themselves weak in math and intmidated by it. They can’t think of creative explanations for fractions or other concepts. Students pick up on this and become insecure themselves.

I’m not sure what the solutions to these problems are.

That said, obviously a lot of people do pick up on math, at least well enough to pass their classes. I think the reason it seems like there are a lot of people who are terrible with math is that it’s socially acceptable to admit it. Say “I hate math,” and you’ll get sympathetic responses. Say “I hate reading,” and people are shocked.

[BrainGlutton]

@Ken001

Curiously one of my cerebral interests is astrophysics and quantum physics. I cannot follow any of the equations but nevertheless understand these areas in a broad sense.

Anyone can, with the help of a lay-explainer of the quality of Asimov or Hawking or Martin Gardner. Funny thing, that. No way could anyone lacking mad math skillz have discovered any of the principles of modern physics.

[Indian]

@sassyfras

According to the word on the street, people REALLY hate math. Even Stephen Hawkin’s Brief history of time is math free:

Why do people hate math so much that half leave at every number? Is this more human stupidity, laziness, or just too cool for school? Explain.

Because 2+2 has to be 4 in maths. In English not necessarily so.

[tomndebb]

This is not really a debate so much as a solicitation for opinions.

Off to IMHO.

[Hello_Again]

@sh1bu1

I think there are three kinds of people:

1. People who understand and appreciate math from the abstract level. I think that is a skill, like being able to draw or sing on-pitch that only a sub-set of people have.

2. People who understand math in a more concrete manner as it relates to solving real problems.

3. Stupid people who will never get it.

I just want to say this one more time. Math is the thing where, if you are bad at it people assume you are stupid or just lazy. See both this post and the OP.

You can work hard at it, and be bright in general, but just not have any tremendous abilities in math. It will just always be a struggle just like some people have below-average ability in foreign language or are not musically inclined, while having high ability in other areas.

It is as natural to be “normally bad” (ie, no learning disability, it’s just not your strength) at math as any other subject but you are much more likely to be declared stupid and lazy for not doing well in math. Apparently “bad at math” says something fundamental about your intelligence, that other subject areas don’t say.

No one says, oh there’s an entire class of stupid people who will never get how to play the guitar.

[bump]

I think a lot of it is kind of similar to what people have mentioned. For me, it’s the running analogy that holds up the best. I can run, I have run, I’m not a particularly great runner, and I don’t enjoy it- it’s generally hot, painful and boring. Either my muscles hurt, or I’m really out of breath- I can only remember a few times in my life where I was running and neither of those was in play. Still, I ran because it was necessary to play football, get a passing grade in PE, etc…

Math was much the same way- it was almost abstract to the point of absurdity, even in upper level college math. I did it, and with much toil and trouble, I passed it. It was never fun, it was always work, and it was almost without exception, without any real reward for the effort put in. It was something to endure, not something I’d do for fun, much like reading James Joyce and Thomas Hardy weren’t things I enjoyed very much, but did for school.

(I’m one of those 80th percentile math people on standardized tests, and I took 3 semesters of calculus, discrete/combinatorial math, and linear algebra in college, so I have a little bit of background)

[Chronos]

It can’t be because math is hard, because it isn’t. Of all the subjects in school, math is one of the few that isn’t hard.

Now, you’re probably all thinking that I’m only saying that because I happen to be better at math than most, but that’s not it. It really isn’t as hard as most other subjects. To illustrate: In a high-school history class, students might be asked to write about the motivations that led the American colonists to declare independence. That seems like a fairly standard high school history question, no? And yet, it’s incredibly hard. It’s so hard that even professional historians, with years of training and practical experience, can’t agree on the answer. But we expect high schoolers to be able to do it, even though the professionals can’t. History, unlike math, is an inherently hard subject. But you never hear people complaining “Oh, I don’t like history, because history is hard”.

Quoth WhyNot:

Some of it is scary sounding terms. Do you have any idea how much “Dimensional Analysis for Medication Dosing” scares baby nurslings? It does, a lot. I refused to learn it for a year, preferring to stay nice and safe with algebra. Only I failed a few math tests, and failing a math test in nursing class is bad enough - getting the answer wrong when it’s an actual patient is a much bigger problem!

Turns out “Dimensional Analysis” is “conversion factors”…well, sheeeeeit! I know how to do conversion factors! That’s that fun little game with numbers Mrs. L. taught us in Chemistry class! Now I know what it’s actually FOR, in a real world sense I’ll use every day. It’s a whole lot faster and has built in error checks, eliminates rounding error and has only two rules - unlike using algebra. But I still hear “Dimensional Analysis” and think it must be some arcane super hard stuff that only Engineers use.

One thing I always try to stress to my physics students (and we use dimensional analysis extensively, too) is that almost everything they’ll learn in physics classes is designed to make their work easier. Everything you actually need from a physics class, you’ll learn in the first week. The entire rest of the class is tips, tricks, and shortcuts.

[Broomstick]

@Chronos

It can’t be because math is hard, because it isn’t. Of all the subjects in school, math is one of the few that isn’t hard.

Yes, for quite a few people it is hard. I’m sorry you can’t accept that.

Now, you’re probably all thinking that I’m only saying that because I happen to be better at math than most, but that’s not it. It really isn’t as hard as most other subjects. To illustrate: In a high-school history class, students might be asked to write about the motivations that led the American colonists to declare independence. That seems like a fairly standard high school history question, no? And yet, it’s incredibly hard. It’s so hard that even professional historians, with years of training and practical experience, can’t agree on the answer. But we expect high schoolers to be able to do it, even though the professionals can’t. History, unlike math, is an inherently hard subject. But you never hear people complaining “Oh, I don’t like history, because history is hard”.

Actually, yes, I have heard people say that very thing about history.

Another point where your analogy falls down is that while we expect students to be able to write a coherent essay on a historical subject we don’t, in fact, expect them to solve any historical problems or mysteries. We expect them to express, coherently, the facts as they have been taught, perhaps with some theorizing no one expects to be and objective resolution to a long-standing problem

Math, however, we do expect students to solve problems, and do it accurately.

It is ridiculous to say history is inherently hard and math isn’t - both subjects are “hard” and “easy” in their own way.

[Voyager]

@Half_Man_Half_Wit

That depends entirely on your conception of mathematics. If you want to see it as a set of fixed rules according to which operations are to be carried out, then yes, there is only one right way. Thing is, there is no central authority that has decreed what is proper maths and what isn’t; rather, it’s an evolving conceptual framework delineated mostly by what people find interesting – what ‘sounds good’ to them. Rules are broken (or rather, changed and amended) all the time: it used to be that taking the square root of negative integers was considered the devil’s work, but nowadays, people are quite comfortable with it.

That’s extending math, not changing any rules per se. You might find another way of doing long division, but the answer had better be the same and this in no way invalidates all the other ways of doing it. Plus, in the context of education, you need to know what the rules are when breaking them. A writer can deliberately spell things incorrectly when writing dialog, but she better know how to spell correctly before doing this.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Chronos

…But you never hear people complaining “Oh, I don’t like history, because history is hard”…

Actually, I have. I know several people who hate history, or think it’s useless, or think they’ll never actually need to know it once they’re out of school. Same as with math, science or any other subject under the sun, as Broomstick and Hello Again have said. Just about everyone has a subject or two with which they struggle in school, or that they don’t prefer. Math (and science, to a lesser extent) happened to be mine. Very few, if any, human beings are geniuses at every subject to which they turn their talents.

[Thudlow_Boink]

In casual conversations with people, one thing that I have heard numerous times is that people will tell me that they liked math until they had that one awful teacher who really turned them off to it, or they had some bad experience with it.

[Voyager]

I don’t think the context issue is important at all. The math books my kids used were awash in context. I personally would have preferred to use some of that space for better explanations of the algorithms being taught. I don’t remember a lot of context when I was taking math in school, and we did just fine.

I think the existence of a right answer has a lot to do with dislike of math. In many fields you can justify wrong answers to yourself - in math you can’t (at least not until you start getting to proofs.) It probably pisses off people who hate to be wrong.
I also think there is a genetic component, speaking as someone from a family which exhibits math skills through algebra but not calculus. My daughter could tell if one of her 14 bibs was missing from her crib, she did massive numbers of math work sheets and obsessively played a computer game. I enjoyed math also. If you are good at it, it is fun, if you don’t get it, I can see hating it.