# Why do people hate Return of the Jedi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182 "2005-05-23T23:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/41 "2005-05-24T07:57:09Z")
Not only did I like RotJ, but I liked RotJ _best_. May have to do something with the fact that I saw it in the cinema with my dad though - there’s some nice symbolism in that. 😉 (though no, neither of us has a bionic hand) I’ll rewatch the trilogy and see if I still think so. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/42 "2005-05-24T09:12:32Z")
Apart from the Ewoks my biggest problem was Han. Easily my favourite character from the first two, and what does he do in this movie? Get rescued, a lot. Totally emasculated him. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/43 "2005-05-24T13:45:45Z")
_Return of the Jedi_ was the first Star Wars movie I ever saw, and the one I’ve seen by far the most times. I never knew there was such hate for it until I started hanging out on the internet. I guess I didn’t mind the abundance of Muppets when I was five. I _liked_ the Ewoks. Now, I think that most of the stormtroopers on Endor were killed by the Rebel commando team, and that the Ewoks served mainly a distraction. But anyone who disses the Yubyub song has no soul. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/44 "2005-05-24T13:56:12Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > But anyone who disses the Yubyub song has no soul. George Lucas, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/45 "2005-05-24T14:05:21Z")
Problems I had with ROTJ: Jabba’s Palace: Ask yourself this question. What place seems more threatening to you- Jabba’s Palace or the Cantina in Mos Eisley? Hammerhead, Snaggletooth, Greedo. Those are guys to avoid. Jabbas guards and anyone else it his place? Not very threatening. Trading off the aliens of the Cantina for Muppet aliens was a huge mistake. Get rid of make-up master Rick Baker and hire the Jim Henson Creature Shop = Bad Move. The second half of Jedi played in three parts simultaneously: Luke confronting Vader, Lando and the space battle, Ewoks on Endor battle. 2 out of 3 ain’t bad but people aren’t too forgiving about that Ewok segment. Speeder bikes and stormtroopers on a forest planet was a good idea, short people in teddy-bear costumes was lame. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/46 "2005-05-24T14:16:24Z")
Well where to start… The recycled dialogue spoken with no enthusiasm (especially by Ford who looks as he wants to be anywhere but in that movie) The Terribly written Kenobi explaination of why he said Vader Killed Lukes father when in Fact Vader was his father (shades of Revisionism to come) The Wasted Yoda sequence where Luke arrives to finish his training to find Yoda suddenly dying and saying his training was complete. Felt and looked rushed. Using a third actor to play Anikan. Ewoks The Wookie Tarzan Yell (Made even worse by having it in Part III) The Mat painting Millenium Falcon. A Super Star Destroyer should not be designed like a plane. If it is built for battle then there should have been an auxillary Bridge, you know like a battleship or Destroyer! The Fricken thing is big enough. Lame Lame Lame! Cackling Over the top EEEEEEeeeeeevil Emperor. After Watching part 3 Palpatine is much scarier and evil as the chancellor. Mild voice gentle features with a nasty streak a mile wide. Lieah is Luke’s Brother. Ewwwww and dumb. Recycled Story. “We found the weakness in the new Death Star! It will require a series of one man fighters… oh yeah and the Millenium Falcon for no reason.” I think the lackluster performances really bothered me the most. In the first two the characters are fun enough for you to ignore the dialogue and plot defficiencies. In ROJ everyone seems so bored you can’t help but be turned off by them. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/47 "2005-05-24T14:28:38Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Ewoks and the fact that there is \*\*no freaking way \*\* Vader deserved to be in the pantheon of fallen Jedi with Obi-wan and Yoda. This is the man who betrayed the Jedi and blew up Alderaan, people! There is a special circle in the depths of Jedi Hell for the likes of him, last minute act of redemption or no. Right down there with Brutus and Judas. I don’t care who he saved in the end…damned he is and damned he will always be! Anakin was a pawn in the whole prophecy thing. Everything that happened in all six movies was simply a fullfillment of the prophecy that the Sith line would be ended. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/48 "2005-05-24T14:32:01Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > How many of those little bastards did it take to hoist one of those logs, anyway? And how many times did their efforts result in unexpected meat-and-fur trebuchet shots? “Base, this is Squad Captain TK-3489 We’ve been getting sporadic reports of faint rains of pulverized woodchuck. It’s all _over_ some of the speederbikes. Any idea what’s behind this?” 😛 Thankyou. now I can die happy. funniest thing i’ve read in ages. You sir, are a genius. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/49 "2005-05-24T14:37:18Z")
I can’t stand _Jedi_, but I think the Ewok hatred is overplayed. While I certainly can’t say I **like** them, I think they play a similar role to Hobbits in the LotR trilogy: the race that seems too small and insignificant to cause trouble, and so the enemy foolishly ignores them to its ultimate peril. Given that, it makes sense — it’s even satisfying, in a way — that they turn out to be a threat to the Empire. Besides, I like how they piss off all the Star Wars geeks who think that every character in the franchise should be a Boba Fett-style badass. If one thing about George Lucas should be clear, he’s not a geek; he wants everyone to be able to enjoy his movies. The Ewoks are there not only for the kiddies, but for the moms; whose mom didn’t love the Ewoks? Mine sure did. Nothing wrong with that. No, Jedi sucks hard for lots of other reasons, the biggest being the utter frittering away of Han Solo. The brooding, headstrong hero of _Empire_ has been banished; in his place is a bumbling, wacky-neighbor sitcom character whose only role is to mug and make bad wisecracks. And you fanboys can spare me your rationalizations about carbon-freezing making him a new man or whatever; the fact is Solo in _Jedi_ is annoying, unheroic and wimpy. What a sad end for such a good character. There are lots of other things to dislike about the movie, such as: [ul] [li]Choppy editing (particularly in the fight scene on Tatooine)[/li][li]Emotional payoffs that don’t pay off (Luke leaves his friends to see Yoda and returns in 10 minutes of screen time, leaving everyone to valiantly pretend they haven’t seen each other in weeks. “Exciting” is, indeed, hardly the word I’d choose.)[/li][li]The recycled Death Star (see previous posters)[/li][li]Doesn’t Ben Kenobi seem rather … corporeal for a spirit? Plopping his butt down on a log, conversing with Luke in detail for minutes on end?[/li][/ul] And so on. I did like a few small things. The new vehicles were cool, Luke’s lightsaber was cool, and I was glad they came up with new sounds for R2-D2. He had to go through all of _Empire_ reciting the same dialogue he’d had in the previous movie! ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/50 "2005-05-24T14:44:35Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > I always liked Ephant Mon, the elephant guy. But then again, that might be just something that stuck with me as a kid. The blue elephant guy was [Max Rebo](http://media.gamespy.com/columns/image/January02_aeons_03.jpg), and he died when Jabba’s barge blew up. [Ephant Mon](http://www.vegatransports.com.au/2001/ephant_mon.jpg) was just another anonymous alien in the background of Jabba’s palace. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/51 "2005-05-24T14:51:37Z")
I do have to admit that there were two things I liked about RotJ: Leia in a slave-girl outfit, and Han copping a feel at the door to the Shield Generator. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/52 "2005-05-24T15:56:27Z")
Getting down to another bit of detail, it seems to me that the storm troopers were using the wrong kind of vehicles – Speeding around in an AT-ST through a forest? Just asking to get smashed up. Those huge, two-legged walker thingys? How’s that going to help you stop things that can run through your legs and into the forest? They should have been smart enough to equip themselves better. Heck, they would have been more effective on foot! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/53 "2005-05-24T19:38:19Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The surprise being that two-foot tall, three-fingered critters managed to engineer and construct those lethal devices. They’ve got an entire village in the treetops, so this isn’t a big stretch, IMO. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > How many of those little bastards did it take to hoist one of those logs, anyway? Who knows? More specifically, did we ever get an exact head count of how many Ewoks there were? If they outnumber the Stormtroopers 50-to-1, then (a) their building of siege weapons and (b) their victory over the Stormtroopers become plausible. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I think the main problem with _Jedi_ is that it was the first movie where Lucas really started really playing to the demographic of very small children, who were with him from the start, anyway. (Yoda might arguably be a step in that direction, but he was somehow less offensive.) “What do little kids like?” The like soft, cuddly things. Thematically speaking, the second half of _Jedi_ was already very dark, what with Luke confronting Vader and Palpatine with his “soul” at stake, and the Rebels getting their asses whupped around the Death Star II. Having the brightly-lit Endor scenes and the innocent-looking Ewoks running on a parallel track keeps the movie from being another PG-13 dreadfest. > [@acsenray](#): > > Getting down to another bit of detail, it seems to me that the storm troopers were using the wrong kind of vehicles – Speeding around in an AT-ST through a forest? Just asking to get smashed up. Those huge, two-legged walker thingys? How’s that going to help you stop things that can run through your legs and into the forest? Hell, speederbikes going 200+MPH in a forest is a combination that’s just _screaming_ for lots of injuries. Personal VTOL jetpacks would have done the same thing while being a lot safer. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/54 "2005-05-24T19:46:49Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Hell, speederbikes going 200+MPH in a forest is a combination that’s just _screaming_ for lots of injuries. Personal VTOL jetpacks would have done the same thing while being a lot safer. Yeah, their OSHA rep had to have gone ballistic when he was the incident reports. I’m guessing that the Empire’s Worker’s Compensation and other insurance rates really got ratcheted up after that whole fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/55 "2005-05-24T19:50:48Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Yeah, their OSHA rep had to have gone ballistic when he was the incident reports. I’m guessing that the Empire’s Worker’s Compensation and other insurance rates really got ratcheted up after that whole fiasco. Not necessarily. Guess _who_ was the benficiary of all those life insurance policies? Plus, I want to see who’s going to be the poor schmuck from Intergalactic Life who has got to explain to the Emperor that his rates are going to go up … ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/56 "2005-05-24T19:52:17Z")
My main objection to _Return of the Jedi_ is Darth Vader’s half-assed redemption. As David Brin put it in a lengthy _[Salon](http://dir.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index.html?pn=1)_ article a few years ago on "_Star Wars_ despots vs. _Star Trek_ populists: > [@](#): > > Having said all that, let me again acknowledge that “Star Wars” harks to an old and very, very deeply human archetype. Those who listened to Homer recite the “Iliad” by a campfire knew great drama. Achilles could slay a thousand with the sweep of a hand – as Darth Vader murders billions with the press of a button – but none of those casualties matters next to the personal saga of a great one. The slaughtered victims are mere minions. Extras, without families or hopes to worry about shattering. Spear-carriers. Only the demigod’s personal drama is important. > > Thus few protest the apotheosis of Darth Vader – nee Anakin Skywalker – in “Return of the Jedi.” > > To put it in perspective, let’s imagine that the United States and its allies managed to capture Adolf Hitler at the end of the Second World War, putting him on trial for war crimes. The prosecution spends months listing all the horrors done at his behest. Then it is the turn of Hitler’s defense attorney, who rises and utters just one sentence: > > “But, your honors … Adolf did save the life of his own son!” > > Gasp! The prosecutors blanch in chagrin. “We didn’t know that! Of course all charges should be dismissed at once!” > > The allies then throw a big parade for Hitler, down the avenues of Nuremberg. > > It may sound silly, but that’s exactly the lesson taught by “Return of the Jedi,” wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son. > > How many of us have argued late at night over the philosophical conundrum – “Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a boy, if given a chance?” It’s a genuine moral puzzler, with many possible ethical answers. Still, most people, however they ultimately respond, would admit being tempted to say yes, if only to save millions of Hitler’s victims. > > And yet, in “The Phantom Menace,” Lucas wants us to gush with warm feelings toward a cute blond little boy who will later grow up to murder the population of Earth many times over? While we’re at it, why not bring out the Hitler family album, so we may croon over pictures of adorable little Adolf and marvel over his childhood exploits! He, too, was innocent till he turned to the “dark side,” so by all means let us adore him. > > To his credit, Lucas does not try to excuse this macabre joke by saying, “It’s only a movie.” Rather, he holds up his saga like an agonized Greek tragedy worthy of “Oedipus” – an epic tale of a fallen hero, trapped by hubris and fate. But if that were true, wouldn’t “Star Wars” by now have given us a better-than-caricature view of the Dark Side? Heroes and villains would not be distinguished by mere prettiness; the moral quandaries would not come from a comic book. > > Don’t swallow it. The apotheosis of a mass murderer is exactly what it seems. We should find it chilling. > > Remember the final scene in “Return of the Jedi,” when Luke gazes into a fire to see Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader, smiling in the flames? I found myself hoping it was Jedi Hell, for the amount of pain those three unleashed on their galaxy, and for all the damned lies they told. But that’s me. I’m a rebel against Homer and Achilles and that whole tradition. At heart, some of you are, too. > > This isn’t just a one-time distinction. It marks the main boundary between real, literate, humanistic science fiction – or speculative fiction – and most of the movie “sci-fi” you see nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/57 "2005-05-24T20:27:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > They’ve got an entire village in the treetops, so this isn’t a big stretch, IMO. I don’t mean to really say “Nuh-uh! Couldn’t happen!” It _is_ Star Wars, after all. I’m mostly reconciled to Ewoks, really. My dislike for them stemmed from being 13 when I first saw 'em, fully expecting 8-foot-tall Wookies kicking Imperial butt. It is kind of fun to imagine how Ewoks would raise whole logs to the canopy, though. I mean, village-in-the-trees, that’s easy, really. Like every other kid, I made tree-forts with my friends rom the time I was seven or so. You’re generally working with smallish bits of wood, one at a time. Getting a ton or so of solid lumber up there is something else again, when your workers weigh 25lbs each. For the purposes of the story, I’m willing to say, okay they assembled massive counter-balanced ratchet-winches for each log, disassembled them once the logs were in place, and carefully camoflaged any sign that they had been there, so that the Imps didn’t notice anything suspicious. Or a furry little wizard did it. Whatever works. > [@David Brin](#): > > Then it is the turn of Hitler’s defense attorney, who rises and utters just one sentence: > > “But, your honors … Adolf did save the life of his own son!” Poor analogy. Vader wasn’t the “Hitler” figure, Palpatine was. And Vader didn’t merely “save the life of his own son,” he sacrificed his own life to dispatch the Emperor. If Goring had a crisis of conscience and selflessly sacrificed himself to take Hitler out of the picture midway through the Holocaust, I think most people would consider it a redemptive act, if it meant the end of the Reich. Hell, there are German officers who are regarded as posthumous heroes for trying and failing to assassinate Hitler. They may not have gone along with the Nazis to the extent that Vader aided the Empire, but a _really_ bad guy who turns it around is a bit more interesting as a story. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/58 "2005-05-24T20:40:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Getting down to another bit of detail, it seems to me that the storm troopers were using the wrong kind of vehicles – Speeding around in an AT-ST through a forest? Just asking to get smashed up. Those huge, two-legged walker thingys?! I assume you mean speeding on speeder bikes. The two legged walkers are called “AT-ST”. Though they did have at least one AT-AT walker like on Hoth as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/59 "2005-05-24T20:45:31Z")
Did it occur to any of you that the Ewoks were using block and tackle? ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/60 "2005-05-24T21:36:05Z")
Don’t bring David Brin into this. That guy pisses me off. Upon reflection, the worst thing about Jedi is the crappy performances. Harrison Ford, the soul of the first two movies, phones it in. Carrie Fisher was a couple of months away from the 12 steps, and it shows. (My favorite _Jedi_ game is adding “Now give me some more cocaine!” after every one of her lines) And Mark Hamil was…Mark Hamil. He gives a total one-note performance. Oh, and the Ewoks sucked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=4)