# Why do people hate Return of the Jedi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182 "2005-05-23T23:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/61 "2005-05-24T21:58:39Z")
What killed it for me was the revelation that Leia was Luke’s twin sister. At that moment, Disbelief, which I had taken the precaution of suspending before I entered the theater, came crashing down on my head. With great effort, and the help of a chain hoist, I managed to get Disbelief re-suspended, but I spent the rest of the movie looking up ever few minutes to make sure it was still hanging and not going to fall again and do further damage to my cranium. Hell, I went to see ROTS and saw Padme freakin’ give birth to the twins, and I still don’t believe it. I think that medical droid had an extra baby girl around because of some record-keeping error that she slipped under that whatsit over Padme’s midsection when the “twins” were delivered to cover for the mistake. I mean, hell, wouldn’t a civilization advanced enough to have FTL travel and freakin’ robots doing the doctoring have monitoring devices that could detect twin feti _in utero_, and if that failed to function correctly, you’d think that Anakin would have maybe put his hand on Padme’s tummy at some point and said, “hey, wait a minute…” Actually, the older I get, and the more documentaries I watch about warfare, the easier I find it to believe that a small furry people using Stone Age technology could, in fact, defeat the battle machinery of the Galactic Empire. I figure, the Imperial troops, being used to dealing with an enemy that employed technology similar to there own, simply wouldn’t have been prepared to deal with the type of weaponry and tactics the Ewoks used. Laser blasters, yeah, been there, done that, we can cope. Big ol’ honkin’ logs swinging from the trees knocking our AT-ST’s over, or rolled in front of them and tripping them up, WTF? But, dammit, they were disgustingly cute. As for Han Solo, and Harrison Ford’s lackluster portrayal of, in the audio commentary on the ROTJ DVD, Lucas said that Ford thought that Solo should have been killed off early in the film in some grand self-sacrificing manner. It seems he was right. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/62 "2005-05-24T21:59:16Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Did it occur to any of you that the Ewoks were using block and tackle? Sure, but I don’t think a block-and-tackle arrangement would be very practical for Ewoks – largely because their crude ropes would create a lot of friction, so the gains made in load-distribution would be reduced with each additional pulley. You’d need a _lot_ of pulleys, too. If I were an Ewok engineer, I think a lot of my projects would involve aggregate counterweights for heavy lifting – a bucket brigade of little critters loading stones into the counterweight bin, until it was sufficient that the load could be raised by more of the little buggers working a single ratcheted pully or lever. Seems like the most practical solution for a two-foot tall labour crew. How much force can each Ewok apply? Maybe twenty, thirty pounds, being extremely generous? ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/63 "2005-05-24T22:28:48Z")
Well, those trees were pretty damned big. Maybe they just got them from the same tree from which they used them? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/64 "2005-05-24T22:53:05Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > The blue elephant guy was [Max Rebo](http://media.gamespy.com/columns/image/January02_aeons_03.jpg), and he died when Jabba’s barge blew up. By which time he’d begotten a [bastard son](http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=sspnk34) by a groupie here on Earth. In addition to the ones mentioned so far, I was irritated by: \*Jabba’s failure to heed the “just shoot him” James Bond villain advice \*Tail gestures implying Jabba had had-his-way with Leia \*We see Leia in a bikini but not Luke? Thanks George. \*Why would teddy bears worship a gold metallic humanoid god? (I assumed this would be explained in _Sith_ but nope- it would seem that Chewbacca would look more like an Ewok deity) \*Leia’s command of the Force seems limited to doing her hair \*Amazing how easy it is to get near Jabba’s favorite possession \*Tattooine in _Star Wars_: sandy, barren, alien, almost expect to see Fremen moving about/// in _RotJ_- looks like a Palm Springs getaway \*The emperor is the most powerful user of the Force in the Galaxy and is surprised when Vader defends his son Of course I would have omitted the entire asteroid creature sequence from _Empire_ as it’s Jedi-worthy One word in the Imperial Defense about Death Star 2: remember that it _was_ a decoy- it was designed to look like it was in construction but was in fact completely operational. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/65 "2005-05-24T23:05:18Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The surprise being that two-foot tall, three-fingered critters managed to engineer and construct those lethal devices. I’d have been impressed to see such critters manage to _fell_ a freakin’ Redwood, much less get several of them hidden in the canopy in such a way that they could be used as remotely operated, synchronized battering rams. How many of those little bastards did it take to hoist one of those logs, anyway? And how many times did their efforts result in unexpected meat-and-fur trebuchet shots? “Base, this is Squad Captain TK-3489 We’ve been getting sporadic reports of faint rains of pulverized woodchuck. It’s all _over_ some of the speederbikes. Any idea what’s behind this?” 😛 Dude, I am _soooooo_ swiping this. I agree with your assessment of the problems with the film. Oh, and I think that if Lucas had put [this](http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html) in his revised ending for RotJ, I’d be willing to overlook everything else he’s done that I find annoying (including _Howard the Duck_). ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/66 "2005-05-24T23:44:26Z")
the luke-leia thing did not freak me out. there are way to many reunited adopted sibling stories out there. some of the siblings were married before they found out they were siblings. luke and leia would have no reason to think they were related. once they knew, the feelings they had for one another fit into the sibling thing. i was more suprized by the twin thing. i would have bet leia was 3-4 years older than luke. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/67 "2005-05-25T00:21:21Z")
I think the ewok thing could be redeemed in future special editions by inserting shots of ewoks being gunned down in job lots before overwhelming the stormtroopers by sheer numbers. I can buy stone age tribes beating sophisticated technology, but not without _serious_ losses. One token dead ewok doesn’t cut it. Mayve also add in a scene where it’s revealed that ewoks have six-inch long retractable claws and an unhingeable jaw filled with wicked flesh-stripping teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/68 "2005-05-25T01:13:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Mayve also add in a scene where it’s revealed that ewoks have six-inch long retractable claws and an unhingeable jaw filled with wicked flesh-stripping teeth. That’s how it is in my _mind_. I’m surprised at how many people “don’t buy” the Luke/Leia thing. I guess that’s a symptom of my always knowing the Skywalker family tree. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/69 "2005-05-25T01:14:50Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > I assume you mean speeding on speeder bikes. The two legged walkers are called “AT-ST”. Though they did have at least one AT-AT walker like on Hoth as well. Yeah, I misspoke. I meant to reference the speeder bikes first and then the AT-ST walkers. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/70 "2005-05-25T02:12:03Z")
I don’t _hate_ ROTJ, but I do think it is the lesser son of greater fathers. As many have pointed out, it is the first indication that Lucas would pander to the children, as opposed to maintaining a consistent and, dare I say it, believable narrative. For all its flaws, ANH is a pretty ripping yarn. If you consider that, at the time, there was no indication that it would become a franchise, I think it holds up very well. ESB carries the story much further, and I think the only flaw in the film is the space slug; it contributes nothing to the story. Everything else I have no problems with. But in ROTJ, it all starts falling apart. The first act is absurdly complex for a rescue plan. What’s wrong with an assault force of Rebels led by Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight, just storming the place and getting their buddy back? The “plan,” as implemented is needlessly complicated, with so many places it could fail as to make it unworkable. And then we get to Endor. Before we even consider the Ewoks, lets look at the assault force. Han and Chewie - OK, fine. We can safely assume that Han Solo is very, very good at getting into places he shouldn’t be, and that Chewie is a crucial part of that success, beside being an arboreal creature (which will come in handy on a jungle world). Random Rebel soldiers - check. Luke? Well, he’s known more as a pilot, but OK, he’s got Jedi Fu on his side. R2-D2? Hmmm. Well, maybe we’ll need someone to bypass some electronics and do other magical mechanical things, so I’ll sort of buy that one. C3P-O? WTF? At the very least, couldn’t they have painted him green? Why the hell do you need a protocol droid on a covert infiltration of an Imperial outpost? Which brings me to Leia. The previous two movies have established that she was a Senator in the Republic, and a pretty important leader of the Rebellion. Why in the name of all that’s holy do you send her on an extremely risky mission with a small chance of success. Although not explicitly stated in the films, it can easily be inferred that Leia will be very important to whatever new government takes the place of the Empire if the Rebellion is successful. YOU DON’T SEND HER ON A COMMANDO RAID!! It’s just a very logically inconsistent film. Way, way too much of the material does not advance the story - it simply provides opportunities to introduce new critters, or to give 3PO some chances to bitch. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/71 "2005-05-25T02:14:33Z")
That ending song is dweeb-dom to the tenth power, surpassed only by the ending song in TPM. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/72 "2005-05-25T04:10:11Z")
> [@rocking chair](#): > > i was more suprized by the twin thing. i would have bet leia was 3-4 years older than luke. Well, that’s probably forgivable – since Mark Hamill is five years older than Carrie Fisher. 🙂 When they met, Luke had really never been expected to be anything but a farmboy, and had barely put away his childhood things. He tinkered with vehicles, played with models, dreamed of adventure. Meanwhile, Leia had been raised with the expectation that she would run in diplomatic circles, assume political office, and do clandestine work to overthrow a tyrannical goverment. It makes sense that she comes across as a bit more mature. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/73 "2005-05-25T04:27:21Z")
IIRC, originally Leia was actually supposed to be sixteen, and Luke was nineteen or twenty at the beginning of ANH. Which means an age difference of, let’s call it about three and a half years. So, if they were twins, then Padme had an extremely long and difficult labor. No wonder she didn’t survive. Actually, when I first saw ROTJ, I think this was something I had known but forgotten about, hence the Disbelief coming so violently unsuspended. On a subconscious level, I knew it couldn’t possibly be true. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/74 "2005-05-25T04:30:35Z")
Okay, I’ve only read about half of the first page; but I see a pattern developing. And I’ll add to it. I liked RotJ for the most part. I _loved_ Leia in the harem outfit! (I’d like to love her _out_ of the outfit. Know what I mean? 😉 ) I overlooked Mark Hamill’s bad acting. I thought the muppets (especially the Elephant Man) were childish. But I can look past them as well. But the teddy bears… I hated them. I hated them with a passion. Ooh, they were offensive. Aw, they’re so _cute!_ Bah! They were humbugs designed to appeal to little kids instead of ‘The Fans’. I was just talking to a friend the other day, who was like eight when he saw it. _He_ liked the teddy bears. I. Can. Not. Stand. Ewoks. And the Choir (semi-)Invisible at the end was hokey too. Believe me, the series would have been much better if they had used _my_ plotline! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/75 "2005-05-25T04:37:40Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Believe me, the series would have been much better if they had used _my_ plotline! Nobody wants to see a two hour film of you porking Leia in her harem outfit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/76 "2005-05-25T04:39:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Nobody wants to see a two hour film of you porking Leia in her harem outfit. As nice as that would have been, I was thinking more of a Greek tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/77 "2005-05-25T04:42:38Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > You’re kidding, right? Were you around in 1983? Was anyone listening to 13-year-old Kevin back then? > > Many millions of people saw the movie when it first came out. And if they had even two brain cells to rub together they saw all the flaws listed here and bunches more. And since most people before the advent of the Internet did indeed have two working brain cells they very properly trashed it in every conceivable way (not knowing that Lucas’ future work would make it look better in nostalgic haze). > > Kevin Smith? :smack: Well, that was kind of rude. But I stand by what I said. ROTJ hatred is a recent phenomenon, one a lot of us only learned about via the Internet and _Clerks_, where Smith’s character runs the movie down comparing it to ESB. You have to remember that in 1983, Star Wars movies were considered children’s fare. The complaint at the time was not that the Ewoks were too childish, it was that Jabba and his pluguglies might be too frightening. No one seriously suggested Star Wars movies as adult entertainment. That was for things like _Terms of Endearment_. Yes, there are a lot of mistakes in ROTJ. There are a whole bunch in ESB and the original, too, but they aren’t itemized to run those movies down. They could be, but they aren’t. Smith did that for ROTJ, and so we get long diatribes about how horrible that movie was. I think Smith is an influence. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/78 "2005-05-25T04:50:00Z")
I probably should add that I was 8 in 1983 and I wasn’t particularly interested in the cute widdle Ewoks. I was a Chewbacca man. So I was a bit surprised to watch the movie again when the DVD came out and saw that the Ewoks aren’t cute in the movie. They have creepy solid-colored eyes the size of your fist, like some deep sea monster fish. They’re covered in the bones and skulls of their victims. They eat people. How these revolting little bastards became cutesy toys is one hell of a sales job. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/79 "2005-05-25T04:53:10Z")
> [@don Jaime](#): > > You have to remember that in 1983, Star Wars movies were considered children’s fare. The complaint at the time was not that the Ewoks were too childish, it was that Jabba and his pluguglies might be too frightening. No one seriously suggested Star Wars movies as adult entertainment. I disagree. And yes, I was around then. _Star Wars_ was not ‘children’s fare’. It was a Science Fiction Adventure the likes of which had never before been seen. Or at least, not since _Buck Rogers_. In retrospect, it was campy and had extremely corny dialog. But at the time it was awe-inspiring. _The Empire Strikes Back_ was also a rollicking space adventure, and I liked it much better than the first one. It was darker. Then came _Return of the Jedi_. (I think I still have a _ **Revenge** of the Jedi_ button somewhere.) It started out as the others did. If not ‘adult’ entertainment, then at least not juvenile. But it took a nosedive with the teddy bears. _My_ complaint, and the complaint of my friends at the time, _was indeed_ that the Ewoks were too childish. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/80 "2005-05-25T05:30:36Z")
The original promotional materials for _Star Wars_ included the pitch “It’ll make you feel like a kid again!” This was ditched because focus groups concluded that it excluded people who still _were_ kids, who might enjoy the film as well, if their parents brought them along. Of course, kids loved it, but it wasn’t aimed at them, and the enthusiasm for _Star Wars_ sure as hell wasn’t limited to children. Take a look at the photos of the folks lining up around the block at Mann’s in 1977, and take careful note of how few-and-far-between the small faces are. _Return of the Jedi_ had a very different, much more “kiddie” feel to it, and **don Jaime** , if you don’t remember people noticing and complaining about it right away, (in large numbers,) that’s just because you were only eight when it came out, and only two when _Star Wars_ came out. Your memory is not reliable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=5)