# Why do people hate Return of the Jedi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182 "2005-05-23T23:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/101 "2005-05-26T04:17:58Z")
The Ewok’s were bad and the other muppets were tolerable to me, but I can’t hate the film as a whole after the amazing Battle of Endor and the great scenes with Paps, Vader, Luke, and 10,000 volts. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/102 "2005-05-26T04:19:03Z")
I was going to say the Ewok’s sounds but my brain rebooted. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/103 "2005-05-26T05:41:40Z")
> [@don Jaime](#): > > You may have a clearer memory than I do, and if you know of any contemporary reviews I missed that back you up, I’d like to read them. You might be approaching it the wrong way around. Try the contempory reviews of the original _Star Wars_. "_Star Wars_, George Lucas’s first film since his terrifically successful _American Graffiti_, is the movie that the teenagers in American Graffiti would have broken their necks to see. It’s also the movie that’s going to entertain a lot of contemporary folk who have a soft spot for the virtually ritualized manners of comic-book adventure. _Star Wars_, which opened yesterday at the Astor Plaza, Orpheum, and other theaters, is the most elaborate, most expensive, most beautiful movie serial ever made. It’s both an apotheosis of _Flash Gordon_ serials and a witty critique that makes associations with a variety of literature that is nothing if not eclectic: _Quo Vadis?, Buck Rogers, Ivanhoe, Superman, The Wizard of Oz, The Gospel According to St. Matthew,_ the legend of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table." – _The New Yorker_ _Time_ put _Star Wars_ on the cover, proclaiming it “The Year’s Best Movie.” When _The Empire Strikes Back_ was released, Jimmy Carter took the visiting premiere of China to see it as a diplomatic gesture. You don’t take a visiting head of state to see a kiddie flick. You’re not going to find a lot of contemporary reviews saying that _Return of the Jedi_ was disappointing because it’s “too kiddie.” That doesn’t mean that audiences weren’t disappointed because it was “too kiddie,” which, by-and-large, they were. There are quite a few film critics who got hurt by initially declaiming _Star Wars_ as a muddle of cliches that left audiences cold. Even more reviewers lost face by pronouncing _Empire Strikes Back_ as a pale shadow of the original, which was sure to bomb. By the time the third movie came out, reviewers had an understandable reluctance to set it down in black and white if they thought a _Star Wars_ movie was disappointing. People were still dismissing critics’ reviews by saying “Yeah, well, you’re the guy who said _Star Wars_ was a load of crap. What do _you_ know?” or “Right, and _The Empire Strikes Back_ was a weak sequel.” Being less-than-effusive about _Return of the Jedi_ was like saying (if you’ll excuse me) that the Emperor has no clothes. That being said, hate for _Return of the Jedi_ is probably strongest amongst people who were juveniles for the first two movies and adolescents for _Return of the Jedi_. If you were under eleven when you saw _Jedi_, Ewoks are going to be just fine with you. If you were an adult the first time you saw _Star Wars_ it was a different movie, too – and the difference in tone between _Empire_ and _Jedi_ might not have been _such_ a huge deal. When _Return of the Jedi_ came out, I saw it once in the theatre – after seeing the earlier films an embarassing number of times. Everyone I knew agreed: What a load of sucky crap. Ewoks? Bleargh. I continued to watch the other movies from time to time, because they were still cool, at least. When the Special Edition came out, I went to see it again in the theatre, because, hey, there was new stuff and we’d all just seen the special editions of the previous ones. I went with the same group of friends that I’d seen the previous special editions with – and there was some debate about whether we’d bother. We went, but talked trash about it going in. We were all surprised to find that it was better than we remembered. (We are all the same age.) _Return of the Jedi_ is no longer the red-headed stepchild of _Star Wars_. (Especially now that we have _The Phantom Menace_ to compare it with.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/104 "2005-05-26T07:56:50Z")
I’m actually glad to hear the reasons, even if I find the level of ire a bit disturbing. Just another reminder that the place where you or I live is just a tiny part of a great big world. Didn’t hate the Ewoks. Didn’t see the reason too. Someday I wish someone would explain to me _why_ cuteness and appealing to children is totally horribly wrong (if this was, say, The Crow, I could understand, but not Star Wars). They do a lot better than they should’ve, but you could say the same for the Rebellion as a whole. Didn’t miss the Wookies at all…one primitive alien race looks just like any other to me, regardless of stature. Vague feelings of dissonance with Leia revealed to be Luke’s sister, but hardly mind-blowing. Their one kiss, IMHO, was horribly trumped up…c’mon, it has to _last_ for a while to qualify as “hot”. I have no trouble believing that they were simply acting on the information they had at the time. (Personally, I find it a lot weirder that Darth Vader confronted her face-to-face and neither was able to determine their relationship.) Don’t _care_ about Boba Fett. He’s a generic hired gun who exists only to advance the plot. If he _captured_ Han Solo, that would’ve been something, but no cool points for finishing a job that’s already mostly done. I was astonished when I found out that he has such a rabid fanbase. I thought Watto was more interesting as a character. Enjoyed the entire time with Jabba. He’s shown to be brilliantly crafty and a master at getting what he wants (HERE’S someone who should have a fanbase!), but is ultimately bested by a greater cause. I loved it. Didn’t see anything way out of the ordinary with Han. Darth Vader gains redemption not by saving his son, but by _killing the Emperor_, then sacrificing his own life to ensure the destruction of the Empire. Maybe it doesn’t make up for his numerous atrocities, but it’s a great act of goodness all the same. (And besides, we don’t exactly know what happens when one becomes “one with the Force” or whatever it is…let’s not assume too much.) And the Empire IS destroyed with the death of the Emperor and Vader…because the whole purpose of the Empire was to satisfy the whims of the Emperor (something which becomes clear in Revenge of the Sith). Cut off the head and the body dies. Now, the _tools_ of the Empire still exist, of course, and could _conceivably_ become a hazard in the future (and I’m sure no one’s going to just ignore them), but the end of the Empire…in the context of the movie!..is definitely worth celebrating. (The EU is a completely different animal and shouldn’t be used to critique the movies. Really.) I liked it. I found it entertaining. I just did. I mean, no offense. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/105 "2005-05-26T08:20:13Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Don’t _care_ about Boba Fett. He’s a generic hired gun who exists only to advance the plot. If he _captured_ Han Solo, that would’ve been something, but no cool points for finishing a job that’s already mostly done. I was astonished when I found out that he has such a rabid fanbase. I thought Watto was more interesting as a character. I’ve always found the rabid geekdom that surrounds Boba Fett to be incredibly pathetic. The guy had a total of maybe 45 seconds of screentime between ESB and RotJ and his name is only spoken twice (that I recall), both times by Han Solo, when he says “Bobafett? _Bobafett?_” and then the bounty hunter promptly dies. I take it as a case of: “Not only do I _know_ who this slightly cool looking but mostly insignificant character _is_, he’s my _favorite character!_” “Oh yea? Well he’s **my** favorite character too!” The fanaticism that surrounds Wedge Antilles is only slightly less pathetic. Now with the propagation of the EU (including video games and comics) and of course the internet, uber-geeks can make similar proclamations of Plo Koon/ Ki Adi Mundi/ (fill in the minor character here) being their favorite. The only example of this that is even _slightly_ acceptable is Aayla Secura, being that she’s, you know, really really ridiculously good-looking and all. Even in her case though, this is still fanboyhood that I dare not tread in. Similar things happen with The Simpsons. Any “Who is your favorite character on The Simpsons?” discussion invariably devolves into “Who can name the most obscure character on The Simpsons?” The show is about Homer, you idiots! The best character is Homer! I hate to be long-winded, but the same goes for Futurama. With the _possible_ exception of Bender, the best character is Fry, damnit! I don’t want to hear about how totally enamoured you are with Joey Mousepad! Whew, sorry about that. Flame off. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/106 "2005-05-26T13:08:47Z")
I actually liked the Yub Yub song. It’s simple, happy, and danceable. I mean, they’re _Ewoks_. It’s not like they’re going to be able to create the London Symphony Orchestra out of sticks and stones. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/107 "2005-05-26T13:08:50Z")
Perhaps a few of the posters in this thread are taking things a little too personally… This is a thread about _opinions_ of a certain work of _entertainment_. Being passionate is one thing, but some of you are acting like Trekkers! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/108 "2005-05-26T13:16:12Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > And Ben Kenobi’s ghost was way to not-ghost-like. Ghosts sit down? In Empire, Ben appeared briefly, and seemed more to proclaim than discuss. In Jedi, he takes a seat and has a nice little chat. Stoooooopid. My god this is a pathetic nit to pick. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/109 "2005-05-26T13:24:27Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > My god this is a pathetic nit to pick. Yeah, it’s not as bad as if he’d made himself a sandwich, got a drink from the fridge, then excused himself to go to the loo. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/110 "2005-05-26T13:31:25Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Yeah, it’s not as bad as if he’d made himself a sandwich, got a drink from the fridge, then excused himself to go to the loo. A scene which was actually scripted and filmed, just failed to make the final cut. It’s included in the Extra Special Edition DVD. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/111 "2005-05-26T13:49:19Z")
\> BZZZZZT! \< ::: Moderator hits buzzer for attention ::: Look, ladies and gentlemen and other persons, this is Cafe Society. We discuss arts and entertainment. We do not discuss other posters, we do not criticize other posters. We do our best not to get overly heated about this. We’re not the Italian opera-going public who throw tomatos and storm the Bastille over a bad performance. Calm and cool, OK? Especially about a movie that’s, what, two decades old? * * * Personal aside: I personally dislike RotJ for the same reason I dislike the three new STAR WARS movies: they make Darth Vader into the protagonist. Vader has murdered countless people, and one noble sacrifice at the end of his life does not and should not somehow magically “counter” all the wickedness that he has done. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/112 "2005-05-26T14:08:40Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’ve always found the rabid geekdom that surrounds Boba Fett to be incredibly pathetic. The guy had a total of maybe 45 seconds of screentime between ESB and RotJ and his name is only spoken twice (that I recall), both times by Han Solo, when he says “Bobafett? _Bobafett?_” and then the bounty hunter promptly dies. > > I take it as a case of: > > “Not only do I _know_ who this slightly cool looking but mostly insignificant character _is_, he’s my _favorite character!_” > “Oh yea? Well he’s **my** favorite character too!” In my mind, I just bought you a beer, sir. Someone once told me Boba Fett was so cool for his “attitude.” What attitude? He just stands there! Boba Fett is a great costume, not a great character. > [@Cisco](#): > > The fanaticism that surrounds Wedge Antilles is only slightly less pathetic. I’d agree with you here, but my g/f would kill me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/113 "2005-05-26T14:41:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The fanaticism that surrounds Wedge Antilles is only slightly less pathetic. Yay! I’m slightly less pathetic than someone! Woo-hoo! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/114 "2005-05-26T14:47:21Z")
From my point of view, _Star Wars_ was definitely not a kids’ movie. It came out when I was 8 and the first time I saw it, I had no idea what was going on most of the time. My mother (who saw it with me) had to explain almost everything. Now this might just be an indication of Lucas’s crappy directing ability, but it might also be an indication that it takes a mature intellect to fully take in all the information being communicated. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/115 "2005-05-26T14:57:42Z")
> [@Khan](#): > > If we just go with what we’re given on screen, then there are still quite a few star destroyers and stormtroopers to be taken care of. I recall reading a one-page fanzine story called “The **Real** Ending To ‘Return Of The Jedi’” – the commanding Admiral of the remaining fleet ranted a bit about all the stupid ideas (e.g. easily tripped Walkers) that had been imposed on the military by old regime. At the end, his aide asks for orders. He thinks a moment, and replies, “Get me a crown”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/116 "2005-05-26T15:00:53Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > What about the flower child outfit? And why exactly did the Ewoks have something for her to wear in her size? :dubious: I agree – the movie would have been greatly improved if she’d worn something hastily cut and restitched out of the amount of material that would realistically be present in Ewok-sized clothing. I’d be willing to suspend disbelief and assume that it simply didn’t occur to anybody to cannibalize two or three Ewok outfits. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/117 "2005-05-26T15:17:40Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I loved the battle at the new DS in this movie. When I saw it in the theatre I was thrilled to finally see a serious space battle that was not some kind of glorified line up and shoot at each other or a one on one duel. Seeing capital ships going mano-y-mano at point blank like that gave me a thrill that not repeated until the beginning of RoS. THAT my friends…is a space battle! > > Anybody else try rebuilding major fleet engagements in Xwing vs Tie Fighter when the editors came out or was it just me. I haven’t played XW vs TF, but I have played XW and TF. And you can bet I was pissed at the end of TF when you beat the rouge admirl and then your suprior officer tells you: “Congrats. You’ve stopped the traitor. You can retire now, since we’re about to use the 2nd death star to crush to the Rebel fleet at Endor.” And you don’t get a choice in the matter. Game Ends. No battle of Endor for you. And I was soo looking forward to that. THough the battle at the end of TF was pretty good as well. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/118 "2005-05-26T19:05:52Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > ESB carries the story much further, and I think the only flaw in the film is the space slug; it contributes nothing to the story. What about the love story between Liea and Han? > [@DKW](#): > > Don’t care about Boba Fett. He’s a generic hired gun who exists only to advance the plot. If he captured Han Solo, that would’ve been something, but no cool points for finishing a job that’s already mostly done. C’mon, he tracked them down and figured out where they were going before they got there, laying a trap for them. He did what he was supposed to and was one of the few that stood up to Vader on their own terms. And Lucas must not have been too upset with his fame, he did add him into the additional footage in ANH. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/119 "2005-05-26T19:54:56Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > We’re not the Italian opera-going public who throw tomatos and storm the Bastille over a bad performance. Hah! _You_ may not be, sir! _throws tomato-proof opera wrap around shoulders_ (And my, it must have been a terrible performance for the Italians to storm the _Bastille_ over it! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182/120 "2005-05-26T20:10:12Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > \> BZZZZZT! > > Personal aside: I personally dislike RotJ for the same reason I dislike the three new STAR WARS movies: they make Darth Vader into the protagonist. Vader has murdered countless people, and one noble sacrifice at the end of his life does not and should not somehow magically “counter” all the wickedness that he has done. I just gotta horn in here, because this is something of a recurring theme I find in discussions of Darth Vader’s redemption. Redemption of the soul is not the same as getting a free pass. Most branches of Christianity teach that if, at the very end of your life, you realize that you have made a pig’s ear of your entire earthly existence, even to the point of causing death and suffering to untold thousands, you can be forgiven. This does not exempt you from the temporal consequences of your sins- that’s why the Catholic Church teaches there’s this thing called Purgatory. Your soul still has to endure the scrubbing bubbles of purification before it gets into Heeeaaavvveeennn. Now, let’s suppose, for a second, that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker had survived Palpatine’s Force Lightening [sub][sup]TM[/sub][/sup], and his case was brought up at the war crimes trials. Would he get a pass? Hell, no. He did the crime, he would ,probably quite willingly do the time. Submit himself to the death penalty, or, more likely in the New Republic, imprisonment or exile on some Force-forsaken rock of a planet. Given that he did sacrifice himself in the process of saving his son (and, coincidentally, probably the galaxy as well), and apparently died quite painfully, maybe on a cosmic level, the Force decided that, added to the fact that he did endure his own private hell in the form of spending the last two decades of his life in what amounted to a portable iron lung, was enough as far as his eternal soul was concerned. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Cafe Society discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-hate-return-of-the-jedi/305182.md?page=7)