# Why do people have children? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699 "2003-11-28T07:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/81 "2003-12-01T20:11:57Z")
For us, having kids wasn’t something we needed to be happy. It was an enhancement of existing happiness. It was an integrated decision. Money? Not terribly important to us on a functional ‘spend it to get stuff’ level, more of an expendable resource we were willing to expend on children. Responsibility? Yes, and one we were comfortable with. Impulse-to-have-them-wise? Intellectually, we felt we could handle parenthood, were interested in sharing our lives with children for whom we were functionally and materially responsible. Emotionally, we felt we would get satisfaction from the experience, encounter events and reactions we might not have in other experiences, and have enough love to go around. Physically, we were able, and the drive to procreate was there. Spiritually, it felt like something that would provide an opportunity for joy, awe, humility, and connection. We didn’t break it out like that at the time, but those were the reasons. Don’t you make all your decisions for the same reasons? Integrating all the aspects, and coming to a conclusion that satisfies you? That’s what we did. And it paid off. There are risks. And there are ugly parts. And there are days when we go to bed exhausted both emotionally and physically. But the love is far more than worth it enough - and not just the love in return, but the love given by us to them, the heart-bursting, ache-to-the-core, eyes-brimming-over, just-have-to-hug-someone-NOW _LOVE_, simply from hearing a single small individual laugh. The ‘I thought I knew how much my parents loved me but I had not the barest flicker of an idea how intense, powerful, deep, and abiding the feeling could be’ love. The giving my mom a thank-you card after my son was born, because I finally GOT it, love. The willing to walk in front of a bus fully knowing it will kill me for the sake of someone else love. Powerful, potent, life-altering, humbling, boundary-obliterating, exhilerating, awe-inspiring love. Worth it. Worth sleepless nights. Worth the agony of driving to the emergency room not knowing if my child is still breathing in the back seat. Worth the foulest poopy diaper, and there have been some really truly foul ones. Worth being late to work more often than on time. Worth releasing the pre-child dreams of breeding horses. Worth re-arranging my entire garden in order to fit a gym-swingset into the yard. Worth discussing yet again why we don’t buy things just to make you feel better. Worth the mommy-bear rage in response to a bully hitting my child. Worth handling broken hearts and anger and grief. Worth all the ick. Becoming a parent, fully and completely, whether by accident or choice, is a truly wonderful, amazing, potent experience. It isn’t the only one out there. It isn’t necessary to our existance. It isn’t advisable for everyone. And many people do it without diving into it fully, do it half-way, or badly, or use it as a way to express their own pain on someone else. And others dive in and find the waters are icy and full of sharks. Some of those manage to build boats and fend off serious injury. Some of them regret ever jumping. Many, even with serious injury, do not. Why? Why anything. Why take up surfing? Because it brings you joy, and you can afford or are willing to take the risks, even if you can’t completely afford them. Why go to school? Because it satisfies something you want from your life, even if you don’t know if you will succeed. You do it because you anticipate the benefits to be greater than the risks, in some way. And if you assess and find that the risks are greater than the benefits, you choose not to. And if you find yourself facing the choice in the moment whether you like it or not, you choose again - to take on the risks, or not to. I respect people who choose not to have kids. The difficulties are great enough that anyone would be considered foolish to take it on when they are unwilling to face the risks, period. No, it isn’t easy and fun all the time. I’d be considered foolish to take on scuba diving with an expectation that I’d never be at risk, too, or without learning about them. But if you are willing to move forward despite your fears and concerns, despite the risks and dangers, despite the annoyances and frustrations, because you see the joys as the greater side of the equation, you go for it. Just the same, you know you are willing to be a parent when the difficulties and fears no longer stop you from planning, trying, or moving forward with parenthood. As for your list: 1. The world is overpopulated. _And all decisions are based on global awareness? You drive yourself to work? The air is over-polluted, too. Do you ever ride a plane? They pollute. Do you recycle everything? The landfills are overflowing. Do you make all your decisions based on how they will impact the world as an absolute? Or do you moderate your risks, shift the balance where you can, and make decisions based on your personal assessment of how much impact you are making, not on the absolute assessment of someone else or everyone as a whole?_ 2. I don’t want to pass on my weaknesses to any offspring. \*Good. Great, in fact. I don’t, either. Funny thing about offspring, they don’t inherit everything exactly the way you are now. And you know, even inherited weaknesses can be moderated. If they are non-genetic, like bad upbringing or emotional issues, you can learn. And heck, you never know. I have strong teeth. My husband has strong teeth. Our kids have soft teeth. But we also know how to take care of them. Information and education are wonderful things. I have asthma, neither child has asthma. I have poorly developed joints and defective collagen. Neither child has either issue. My husband has a non-perfect spine (developmentally), neither child has that issue. ::Shrug:: Beyond that, I have strengths that don’t pass on, either. And some that do. But the greatest thing I pass on is how to think, how to handle problems effectively, the skills of approaching life with a positive attitude, of finding joy in little things and big ones, of relating to others, of empathy and compassion. Hardly a bad thing, IMHO. \* 3. Having children means I must be responsible for them. Ewww! _Then don’t. If you ever feel the responsibility is worth it, then you will feel it is worth it. The ewww reaction is uncalled for. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for a parrot, myself, but I’d hardly say ‘ewww’ about it. If you are squeamish about it, stay off the topic as save your squirming for someplace where we don’t have to hear it._ 1. Any money I make is mine and doesn’t have to be squandered on some stupid college fund. \*Go play. Have fun. My money is mine, and I choose to spend it, just like you do. I like making it grow. I like the idea that I will be able to help someone else with my money. My parents didn’t have a college fund for me, and I just finished paying off my student loans this year. We will have a fund for our kids. How nice. Like charity! Feel free to spend yours (though I recommend a good retirement fund, so you can spend more of it when you get old). Play responsibly. \* 2. My parents don’t get to gloat over me suffering for the same reasons they suffered. _Boy, you must have had mean parents. I don’t gloat, it is unkind. Rather, I rejoice when my child doesn’t have to suffer the same things, and I commiserate when they do._ 3. I am extremely happy with my life now. I don’t want to change that or screw it up by having kids. _Well, duh. Don’t change anything if it is perfect. But life isn’t static. You, yourself aren’t static. You learn, you grow, you change. So do we all. What I wanted when I was a teen is not what I wanted when I was in my 20’s, and not what I want now. My life has been perfect many times in that span. But I wouldn’t go back to any one of them, change the current wonderful for the previous one. When your life shifts, your self shifts, your expectations shift, your goals shift, your desires shift, you are then going to reassess, and reassess again, each time. You may never find that having kids is a bonus to where you are. Or you may. But just because my life is happy doesn’t mean that it won’t be happier with children. I didn’t need to get married to be happy, either. I was happy with my love life the way it was. It just shifted and marriage was something we felt was an appropriate addition to our happiness, and sure enough, we were happier with it. If we hadn’t been, oh well, life is about learning and trying things, and adulthood is about doing so responsibly, isn’t it? If that means kids is a responsible choice, then it is. And if it isn’t, where’s the question?_ 4. The world is not in optimum condition right now, why bring some poor innocents into it? _When has the world been in optimum condition? Not my mom’s generation. Not the one before, or the one before that. There’s always war, or poverty, or disease somewhere. There’s always inequity, conflict, or despair. And there is also always charity, kindness, grace. There are always people trying to make it better, people being kind, people trying to change the world in a good way. That hasn’t changed, either. My generation fears terrorism randomly taking away someone we love. My parent’s generation feared nuclear war, and theirs feared epidemic disease. The name of the fear changes, but the fact that life is not a guarantee of happiness has not. The fact that our world is always at risk, that random or non-random events can hurt us has always been true. If you are waiting for perfect, have fun, and let me know when it happens. In the meantime, I have children, not as an act of hope, but an expression of the knowledge that there is good as well as bad, and everyone has to navigate that, no matter who they are._ 5. I am very childlike myself, and I have noticed that people that have children lose a lot of that sense of wonder. I would rather remain forever a kid. _I’m with the ones who find that as much as I had wonder and joy before, it is redoubled and redoubled now that I have kids. Yes, there are responsible thoughts, fears and concerns, serious moments and deep thoughts. And there is also the joy of rainbows, and finding worms on a wet sidewalk, of the very first snowstorm, over again. The visceral response to food, the hysterical joy of pretending, the awe of learning something new. I get to see it all and do it all again. And I get to do it like the first time, again. Stomping in puddles, laughing freely, without a flicker of social awareness about being inappropriately childlike as an adult - I have a child with me, and that makes me exempt. People laugh and wave as I stomp along behind my child, down the sidewalk for the fourth time, soaked to the knees. What gets better than that?_ ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/82 "2003-12-01T20:18:19Z")
I’m 7 months pregnant with my 4th baby. I’ve always knows I wanted to have kids. One of the features I looked for in the man I would marry is a man who would make a great father. When my huband and I married we both knew we wantd kids. No questions. We seem to be doing well so far. The kids are healthy, happy and greatly loved. They add to our lives so much. This is going to be our last baby (I’m 99% sure) and I go back and forth between, “Thank God I won’t have to go through the discomforts of pregnancy any more!” and “I’m so sad I’ll never again feel a baby moving inside of me!” I want kids because I like them a lot, love being a mother, and I feel that I’m doing very well at it! ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/83 "2003-12-01T20:23:03Z")
(all the above is IME, and IMHO. YMMV. And certainly my childless siblings have wonderful lives.) ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/84 "2003-12-01T20:40:33Z")
…And once again, **hedra** outdoes us all with her eloquence with what we feel but can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/85 "2003-12-01T20:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wake up call \* > \*\* > > Let me give you an example. Three posts above, **vanilla** , challenged my post. And yet earlier in this thread, she had posted the following: > > OK. I became curious as to how can someone (who disliked kids her whole life), has now become such a pro-children advocate. > > So, I decided to run a search on her past posts, all 6417 of them, listed in 258 pages, going back to early year 2000 when her SDMB name was Peaches8. If you do that, and read through her posts, you get a pretty good picture on what happened to this 45 year lady who has a 10 year old son and is now on public assistance. > > You’ll find she believes in the return of Jesus (which is fine), but hates Pat Robertson (which is also fine). You’ll find she fell in love with a guy who was apparently gay. He insisted that if she wanted a child, she should get an artificial insemination. But she insisted to have his baby. She then brought up the little boy, giving him milk, while she hates milk. Then she gets divorced and subsequently falls in love with another guy in March 2000. The story is all there to read if you have the time and patience to go through her 6417 posts. > > I do not have any cites for this statement, but IMHO it is mostly women who directly or indirectly push a man to bring children into this world. and not resorting to public handout. > > I suppose the answer is the same as you yourself always having hated dresses and skirts because you find them annoying. \*\* Great God Almighty! First, you read ALL my posts? Second, my former husband wanted me to have his child, I did not push him. Third, I am not divorced, widowed. He wanted artificial insemination because he wanted me healthy as he had AIDS; we did have sex many times without trying for impregnation. Fourth, I was working while pregnant, up to the 4th month( I was a dancer) and went back to work 5 weeks after giving birth. I lost my job when my son was 2. Fifth, i never said I was a child advocate, anyone who doesn’t want them, fine! I was just curious as to your thoughts on this, I see you seem a bit obsessed and have an unusual dislike of children. Honestly, you came across in this post as a bit …weird. Can you not see that? ---
**Author:** ![Sacrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Sacrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrip)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/86 "2003-12-02T23:14:12Z")
Asking why someone should have children is rather like someone asking for a logical reason to believe in God. At every turn, an argument is met by a counter argument, and left at a standstill, where the pro God/child person just has to say “well, I feel in my heart this is what I want to believe/do.” Maybe the OP’s question would be better as “Should there be requirements before we’re allowed to reproduce?” or “Is Social Darwinism the way to go?” or even “Stop telling me I have to have kids, DAMMIT!” (for the pit, of course) Fact is, having kids as an adult is societal default mode. As long as more births are accidental than intentioned (don’t know if that’s true, but I bet it is), then that won’t change anytime soon. This is my first post, by the way. Hi. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/87 "2003-12-03T01:28:57Z")
**Vanilla** What did you do to **Wake up call**??!!:eek: Anyway, like I said waaay earlier in the thread, I don’t mind helping. Children are always a good cause. You don’t need to explain your life or reasons to anyone. Just enjoy it.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Swoop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Swoop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swoop)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/88 "2003-12-03T11:42:40Z")
A few answers come to mind; because we’re ignorant, because we like to fuck, because the idea of watching a “little me” develop is so enticing, because we all think we’re different from everyone else, but I think mostly because we’re selfish and don’t really give a crap about anyone’s happiness but our own - evidenced by a number of posters here who essentially replied with “because I can” (and even so, just the dream of it, it rarely manifests to produce the happiness people expect from it) . Understand that the response you’ve elicited here is somewhat biased, as the majority of the audience are in a “good” situation, sure they might bitch about the price of cds and petrol etc. but do consider the parents who aren’t answering - the ones who send their children walking twenty miles a day just for drinking water, or who don’t even see their children during the week because they can’t afford the cost of transport home from their menial hard-labour etc. etc. Developed-world people delude themselves with all kinds of fanciful ideas about how their kid might be the one to discover the miracle alternate energy, or be the next Jesus or Einstein or whoever; under-developed–world people delude themselves that their kids will provide for them in later life and achieve things that they couldn’t in theirs. In both cases here, I’m presuming these are the parents that actually WANTED children in the first place, many just can’t control their sexual urges and end up as parents as a result. And as has been mentioned, kids are useful manipulation tools between adults. That “genes”/“we’ve always been doing it” argument is incredibly weak. (ad antiquitatem?) The people questioning the need to “understand” - why people who don’t want kids don’t understand those who want kids… lol. Why do we want to understand? How can desire for understanding _EVER_ be questioned? and it’s only parents that question like this. Telling indeed. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*there are no truly logical reasons for wanting to have children, just as there are no really logical reasons for _not_ wanting to have children. Note that the “reasons” given for not having kids in the OP have either been debunked, or are matters of choice/opinion. \*\* > > False. There are many logical reasons to not have children. Just because the ones listed weren’t concrete doesn’t mean there are none, and it only takes one to null the decision. Use finances as an example. > The “debunking” was narrow-mindededly handled and inadequate. > > \*\* > That doesn’t mean that either choice is invalid. That simply means that finding logical reasons for either choice is an exercise in futility. > \*\* > > False. You simply feel it’s futile because you know there is no logical reason for _your_ decision. > > \*\*Speaking for myself, > \*\* > > Just thought I’d highlight that 🙂 > (it’s what all the parents are doing these days - speaking for themselves. Because they matter. Not the other ones. Just them. And Their beautiful, cute, unique, smart children.) > > \*\* > **pepperlandgirl** , why do you _have_ to understand it? Clearly, whoever you’re talking about doesn’t share your feeling that it’s “catastrophic.” Can’t you simply be happy for them because they’re happy? > \*\* > > What if you don’t think that what your friends are happy about is actually a good thing? What if you don’t think they’re capable parents and are actually about to embark on fucking up another human’s life (for all the typically bs selfish reasons popping up in this thread)? > > \*\* > Do your friends have to understand everything that makes you happy to be happy for you? > \*\* > > maybe if more people took the time to understand each other period… blah who am I kidding. > > \*\*I’ll be happy for her when she gets pregnant again. > \*\* > > So even though you don’t want more children, you’ll have them anyway because your wife wants them. That’s nice. I can see why you don’t feel there’s any logic involved in the decision to have children. > > \*\* It’s what _she_ wants, and I don’t have to understand the ins and outs of it to be happy for her. > \*\* > > Perhaps you should try. Why DOES she want more kids? What’s her motivation? > > \*\*I don’t see why anyone should have to justify the choice to have kids > \*\* > > See Wake Up Call’s post. Your kids will not be folded up and placed in a quiet corner for their lives. They impact other people’s lives. If you cannot understand this, you should not be a parent. > > \*\*It’s like trying to find logical reasons for pure faith (or the lack thereof): logic simply doesn’t map to these things. > \*\* > > Spoken like a true theist (nevermind whether you are one or not). There IS logic, you just prefer to avoid it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dangerosa \* > \*\*I have no control over when my four year old decides that NOW is the time to throw a major tantrum. > \*\* > > No, you have no control, not now, she’s already learned the behaviour. Where from? You tell us, you’re the parent. Was it you? Was it daycare? Was it friends? Was it TV? Wherever it came from, it’s in. You can make all the excuses you like, and duck the responsibility all you like, but you can’t change the facts. You can change what future behaviour patterns she adopts, but it looks like you’re already down the wrong path (the one signposted “Troublesome Childhoods up ahead! More Excuses 5 miles”. > > \*\*Kids run, they touch, they get loud. > \*\* > > When their parents allow it, yes. > > \*\*And, generally speaking, she has tried every disipline method she can stomach (and occationally, some she promised she would never do) to try and get her child under control. > \*\* > > Sounds about right, for someone who has no idea what they’re doing. > > \*\* > Be grateful that someone else is raising them so that there is someone to empty your bedpan when you are in the nursing home - consider your time on the plane with a screaming toddler doing your small part to make sure that society is there when you need it. > \*\* > > Rationalizing like that can go both ways (or anywhere, really). Why should I be grateful for the psycho deviant that raped my neighbour, killed her cat and then fed it to her before chopping off her head? Why should I be grateful for the poor schmuck who stands and flips burgers for a living? etc. > > \*\*Parenting is a little like that. Its really really hard. > \*\* > > Fishing is a little like that. It’s really really hard. Especially if you don’t know about bait. Or if you don’t know that casting your line over a highway isn’t the right place to do it. But with some knowledge and observation, all that can change. > Pretty much anything you try to do with no prior knowledge is hard. But when you’ve got 6 billion+ examples to learn from, it shouldn’t be a problem gaining knowledge. Dangerosa, your kids/pets analogy was frightfully laughable. and again, telling indeed. (I don’t mean to pick on you, because any analogy with kids I feel is rather poor, because nothing can possibly be as demanding or important as raising children… properly. No hobby or activity is going to compare, and it’s stupid to try.) From the posts, it seems there are a few people who chose to be parents for the right reasons and are most likely good parents - but they’re unfortunately in the minority. On a forum as reasonably educated and intelligent as this one, that’s… telling too. Most parents lose the ability to objectively see logic, and there IS logic - just because we’re dealing with humans and emotions doesn’t mean logic magically falls away - in the issue, which is a sad, sad thing. The biggest area they fail to see logic in, is why they can respect the decision to not have children, but those who don’t have children don’t seem to want to respect the decision to have children. Try looking at it from a smoker vs non-smoker point of view (puff “oh, fine, you don’t wanna smoke? That’s all right with me.” ash-flick). Or gas-guzzler driver vs cyclist. Or any \ vs \. Wake up Call’s points were all quite valid. Those that took the most offence probably deserve to. The defensive attitudes that sprung up are all… yes, telling! People don’t defend things they know they’re not guilty of. Some people posted reasons for having children, but not for a moment did they attempt to justify _their own_. Others did. The difference between the two is marked. Obviously there is some need for reproduction to occur, but at the moment it happens too frequently by parents who are not ready to be parents, and who don’t know how to be parents. In time, I’m hopeful (from the increasing number of people I see who feel they’ve been “incorrectly hardwired” or some such, because we disagree with having children), as society and culture progress these will become problems of the past (today). For now it’s just “me me me! look at the miracle **I** produced!”. Thanks for the thread, a very interesting read. And quite telling. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/89 "2003-12-03T12:16:55Z")
Swoop, Do you have children? Do you have a spouse? Do you control their actions? ---
**Author:** ![Swoop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Swoop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swoop)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/90 "2003-12-03T13:10:21Z")
No, no, and no. I have a dog though! But I can’t control him ☹ Tried a mind-meld once, but something went wrong and I ended up widdling on lamp-posts for a week after. ---
**Author:** ![hedra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/779978/32.png) [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/91 "2003-12-03T17:03:23Z")
And if you can’t control a dog, you are to blame for its breed-specific and age-specific behavior? I’m sure your dog is headed for a lifetime of trouble, it having seen other dogs peeing on lamp posts, or learning that behavior from you 😉 . They’re born housetrained and under control, you know, it is just the owner or other dogs influencing them to pee in corners and growl at strangers. And clearly if you haven’t controlled all their behavior yet, you aren’t up to the responsibility. (not to mention that a 4-year old person is still a puppy by that analogy…) Next question: Do you have any child-development background at all? I’m just waiting to hear that you are a developmental pediatrician… Because you certainly have plenty of assertions that suggest you know _all_ about why children behave the way they do. You are smart, you are a good observer, you therefore know what is going on in situations for which you have how much training, personal experience, and education? * * * As for the ‘why do you have to push it on me’ thing, actually I find the religion comparison rather useful. Some parents are trying to convert the non-parents. And some non-parents are trying to convert (or deride, dismiss, etc.) the parents. Just like strong believers and non-believers in a particular religion. And they do so regardless of whether they happen to be perfect practicers of their faith. Which makes it a pointless argument to get into. However, I would bet that a great many of the people who proselytize parenthood would be horrified at the idea of pushing their religion on someone else. Perhaps pointing out the parallels would shut them up more effectively? It also helps explain why it is so irksome to those who don’t want kids. I think I’ll have to use that on my mom, who thinks I should want daughters. I don’t. No particular hunger or need for one. Child, yes. Girl? Whatever. I like boys, I have boys, I don’t need a girl, thanks. But I get the same line from parents-of-girls as childless people do from parents-of-any. “You don’t know what you are missing.” and “You’d understand if you had one.” and “The experience is impossible to describe… rewards you won’t get any other way, experiences that you will never have if you only have boys.” And they’ll be all sad for me if I don’t have a daughter (okay, some of them). If I had a daughter, that would be great, because she’d be my child. I’d probably love the experience just fine. But please, I don’t need to be converted, just so I can mourn the lack if I don’t get it. I don’t need to ‘get it’ to be able to live my life. I don’t need to have a daughter to feel complete, or happy, or at peace. I didn’t even need kids for that, they were enhancements that developed naturally from where I was, not things to stuff into the holes in my heart that I should have repaired on my own. The ‘why do anything’ argument still holds, for me. Because it makes sense to me, it fits my needs, it resonates to what I want, and it satisfies something that I’d like satisfied. Same reason I believe anything I believe, do anything I do, etc. And when people don’t want kids, that’s great. I feel bad only when they get them if they don’t want them (if they don’t find themselves transformed in the process, which many do and some do not), and the same if they want them but don’t get them. I can’t find myself feeling bad for someone who doesn’t get what they never wanted. Even if it MIGHT have been transformative for them, that’s like me being all bent because I’ll never climb Mount Everest. I don’t particularly want to, and I’m not especially able (asthma, bad knees), and while I know it is profoundly moving and the experience can be life-altering, I am not about to mourn the loss. And I suspect that if for some strange reason I was forced to climb Mt. Everest, and made it, it would probably be transformative for me, too. Still won’t find me buying climbing gear. JUST because it is a life-altering experience, doesn’t mean you need to try it. I do have to agree with **swoop** that the justifications are often pretty flimsy. But any justification is flimsy, by the very nature of it being a justification. And most of them just get you in trouble if you try to live life like they are actually valid. Say, that my child will support me in my old age - what if they don’t? What if they don’t want to? Should I require it of them? Will they just want to escape that pressure? Not that they can’t decide to do so on their own, if we have a solid relationship, but boy, that’s not my idea of a good reason to have them on its own. And the ‘contribute to the world’ one should be a part of life in general, not a reason for being born. It kind of makes the whole ‘be a good person’ a burden, not a skill that has value in itself. I expect my children to leave the world a better place, because that is part of the values I teach, part of what it means to be a good person in our family culture. But that’s not why I had kids. Justifications of not having kids, like ‘I like spending my money on myself’ are just the same - justifications, and therefore flimsy. If you don’t have a drive and need to do so, you don’t. If it doesn’t fit your life and what you want, what you think will satisfy you, that’s fine. Justifying it, just like justifying having kids, is a poor cover for the deeper truth. And that deeper truth, if it is really there (and you aren’t just hiding insecurity or emotional issues either way), will hold up under a cross-fire. So why hide it under the surface junk? Part of my own deepest reason is found in the paragraph on love that I wrote in that huge freakin’ post above. I have kids to give TO them, not to get FROM them. Yes, there is satisfaction in watching them grow, but even part of that is in having been the gardener that tended, cultivated, pruned, supported, and guided the growth. They are who they are, but my effort is a gift and a learning experience and a transformation in itself. And as any long-term gardener knows, when you tend your garden, the process of tending something else comes full circle and tends the gardener, as well. Even if the garden never bears fruit, or turns out vastly different than what you expected, even if you have to make major overhauls, recover from disasters, etc., it is the process of gardening that it the real reason to have a garden, not the flowers at the end. It is the gifts I give, the effort I put out, the thought I put in, the intimacy and love I grow in me, that makes being a parent worth it. And that process can be found in other places, too. We don’t all have to grow flowers to be gardeners. Even the tending of a zen rock garden involves the same processes, brings out the same kinds of strengths, requires the same kinds of discipline, and gives back to the gardener. It may not be as immediately and obviously overwhelming as parenthood can be, but I don’t think everyone needs to be hit with a 40-lb hammer to grow themselves fully. If you don’t grow flowers, you won’t know what gifts flowers grow in you, but you will know what gifts you get from whatever else you are tending - your life, your community, your intellect, your friendships, your business, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/92 "2003-12-03T17:20:41Z")
"The people questioning the need to “understand” - why people who don’t want kids don’t understand those who want kids… lol. Why do we want to understand? How can desire for understanding EVER be questioned? and it’s only parents that question like this. Telling indeed. " I’m not even sure what the heck this means… From where I sit, here is how the discussion has gone: OP asks a question about why people want to be parents, providing list of reasons why they find it hard to fathom. Parents answer, explaining how the issues raised by the OP were different for them. Perhaps a little defensive in some responses. OP and others who aren’t interested in children react as if the responses–which were solicited, I’ll point out–was an attempt to recruit people to breed. It calls into question whether the OP was a genuine question at all–or rather a position statement masked as curiosity. I think the OP didn’t want to know more about why people become parents. I think she wanted to argue with parents and promote her own views as not just being right for her, but actually right for everyone. And I don’t agree with this. Shame on me if I ever try to advocate that my choice to become a parent–or to have a certain number of children–is right for anyone else. Similarly, shame on anyone who tries to promote _their_ decision as the more correct one. My beef with pepper was not that she couldn’t understand–I don’t understand things either, such as the desire to have more children than I do–but rather that she seemed to be adamant that her own lack of understanding invalidated many cultural mores–such as giving baby gifts. Saying congratulations. That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sacrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Sacrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrip)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/93 "2003-12-03T21:49:42Z")
well, I didn’t mean to imply that pushing parenthood is equivalent to pushing religion; I’ve yet to have a total stranger ask why I’m not reproducing, the way they sometimes ask if I’ve accepted Jesus. My only point was that if a healthy, financially sound adult decides to procreate, he or she shouldn’t have to justify it with logical reasoning. A poor or mentally challanged person, well, that’s a WHOLE different thread. ---
**Author:** ![sweetfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@sweetfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweetfreak)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/94 "2003-12-04T04:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > It calls into question whether the OP was a genuine question at all–or rather a position statement masked as curiosity. I think the OP didn’t want to know more about why people become parents. I think she wanted to argue with parents and promote her own views as not just being right for her, but actually right for everyone. This is the great debates forum correct? Debates are a more civilized form of arguing. And some people should have children. But I stand by my beliefs that not everybody that has children shoud have had them. Just because someone desires to have children does not make them capable of raising them. Should a sixteen year old girl who can’t even take care of herself have children? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![pestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@pestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pestie)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/95 "2003-12-04T05:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*Parents answer, explaining how the issues raised by the OP were different for them. Perhaps a little defensive in some responses. > > OP and others who aren’t interested in children react as if the responses–which were solicited, I’ll point out–was an attempt to recruit people to breed.\*\* This is a fairly accurate assessment of how things went in this thread, but I don’t think the OP was trolling. I think the discussion degenerated in places because of the emotionally charged content. The parents got a little defensive and the anti-breeders got a little defensive in return. It’s human nature when discussing just about any topic that belongs in Great Debates. Oh, \ help me, I’m posting in GD now. I swore I’d never come in here… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@pestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pestie)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/96 "2003-12-04T05:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sweetfreak \* > \*\*Should a sixteen year old girl who can’t even take care of herself have children? I think not. \*\* That, if I’m not mistaken, is an entirely different topic, and probably belongs in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Swoop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Swoop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swoop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/97 "2003-12-04T07:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hedra \* > **And if you can’t control a dog, you are to blame for its breed-specific and age-specific behavior?** > > er, no. Dogs do not possess human brains. They cannot learn or reason like a human can, and I can’t expect my dog to behave the way I’d expect a child to. This is why the analogy is completely flawed. You might as well compare a loose piece of fruit in a grocery store stand that keeps falling out the display. Is it misbehaving? Did the farmer not train it properly? > > \*\*(not to mention that a 4-year old person is still a puppy by that analogy…) > \*\* > > Aside from the massively increased ability to learn, reason, think… > > \*\*Do you have any child-development background at all? > \*\* > > None whatsoever. 🙂 > > \*\*you certainly have plenty of assertions that suggest you know _all_ about why children behave the way they do. > \*\* > > It’s not terribly hard to figure most of this out without spending years at university reading what the experts have to say - it’s only a matter of being honest enough with yourself to want to know. For example, next time you see parents with their children eating at McDonalds (I’m trusting this isn’t you 😉 ), why don’t you give some good long thought to exactly what’s going on there. I’ll help you get started - many people don’t know how to eat. I mean literally, they eat the wrong food in the wrong quantities and they’re com_plete_ly unaware of it. It’s just the way it is for them. Why? > Do you know off-hand how many psychological disorders can present themselves later in life as a result of poor childhood nutrition? Whether it’s an overweight guy who becomes a social recluse because he’s so embarrassed about his weight, or a bony teenage girl who’s over a toilet after every meal puking her guts out, or a mid-life desk-jockey bouncing from one fad-diet to the next, it all comes down to poor eating habits formed during youth, and never understood in adulthood. Helped form by parents who simply don’t know how to eat correctly themselves. Am I making sense? (I’m using eating as an example because it’s so basic and taken for granted, but you could approach almost any aspect of parenting similarly.) > > \*\* > Some parents are trying to convert the non-parents. And some non-parents are trying to convert (or deride, dismiss, etc.) the parents.\*\* > > Nnno. not from my side anyway, the idea of trying to convert a parent to my way of thinking is ridiculous. You can’t be converted, you ARE a parent. What are you gonna do, un-have your kids? > You made your decision a long time ago, and it can’t be unmade. The best you can do is see reason on the other side and just agree to it, but you need to put down the defensive attitude and stop feeling a need to justify yourself. Your decision is made, your children exist, whether you now come to understand why not everyone should have children will not change that. > Unfortunately people are just too emotional and self-involved (as in, making it their problem) about this to even respond clearly. > > When I first came into this thread, I was expecting commentary on what kind of reasoning most parents use to have children. Where are most parents? ACTUALLY, not in the USA!! I was expecting to see people’s thoughts on why a third-world mother of five with absolutely no means of supporting herself or her existing children, will go on to have another child. And another. And another. Instead, I come in and find a bunch of bleating over-sensitive middle-upper (I’m guessing) class Americans blabbering on about “because I” “because my” “because me”. So selfish, that even _criticism_ on parents must be made an issue about me-me-me. > Of course there are criticisms to be made at American parents, many, heavy ones (kinda like that McD’s example), but those are criticisms on _parenting_, not the _decision_ to be a parent - and that’s another issue altogether. (Or is it? maybe if parents were better parents kids would understand why they didn’t need to have kids once they grew up…?) > > \*\*And they do so regardless of whether they happen to be perfect practicers of their faith. \*\* > > Not really. Either you are a parent, or you aren’t. There’s no middle ground. I have no children, so I effectively am a perfect practicer of my belief. > > \*\*Which makes it a pointless argument to get into. \*\* > > Indeed. > > **The ‘why do anything’ argument still holds, for me.** > > Not for me. There isn’t anything else you can do that requires the same utter commitment of responsibility, time and devotion that becoming a parent entails (or should entail, as we all know some folks brush it off as an inconvenient result of poor birth control). Nothing. Perhaps this is where the problem lies - people feel it’s comparable to a dedicated hobby or a pet or a heavy investment, but it really isn’t. It CAN’T be, ferchrissakes, you’re producing another member of the most advanced species on the planet! > > It is my (possibly demented) belief that an important step in the evolution of humans, or of any intelligent life, is to realize that after a point, reproduction starts reducing in priority. We’ve known for some time that humans are the dominant species on this planet. We don’t need to further assert this in numbers, and it takes a certain degree of intelligence to recognise this. By continuing to haphazardly populate the planet with absolutely no thought behind it, we’re only making it more difficult for ourselves in the long run (and even in the short run, have you ever stopped to consider what the world would be like if only half the number of people existed? if say, a thousand years ago people had voluntarily started controlling their reproductive urges - how much easier would life be for us now? I know people don’t care much about the future, figuring it’ll just take care of itself - which is particularly ironic for parents- but that is some of the responsibility that intelligence brings with it. Respect for both the past, and the future, and it may well mean personal sacrifice). I’ve noticed people on this forum are generally quite optimistic about plentiful resources and energy always being cheap and available and so on, but I find that optimism difficult to share. Particularly considering that on issues like this, people are SO reluctant to change their views. I don’t believe things can continue as they are for more than a decade or two without some drastic changes. > > **Justifications of not having kids, like ‘I like spending my money on myself’ are just the same - justifications, and therefore flimsy.** > > Agreed. But if you turn that justification slightly to “can I afford to have a child and raise it at a level I’m happy with”, it becomes a little more solid. Of course everyone likes spending money on themselves, the issue is whether they can adequately support a growing life. Some people might be willing to spend less on themselves to ensure they can, some may not. > > \*\*If it doesn’t fit your life and what you want, what you think will satisfy you, that’s fine. Justifying it, just like justifying having kids, is a poor cover for the deeper truth. \*\* > > If everyone had that attitude, you’d be quite correct. But, as I think was mentioned earlier, people expect justification from people who don’t want kids. It’s not considered normal (yet). > > **Part of my own deepest reason is found in the paragraph on love** > > That is good to hear, and love is indeed an incredibly powerful and wonderful thing, but I don’t think it’s enough any more (besides which, it should be part and parcel of parenting, not the added bonus that only a few privileged children experience. Again, this is a matter of people becoming parents when they clearly should not). Along with that love, I think children are entitled to an equally enthusiastic and devoted amount of knowledge and information. I’m not even talking about the kind of information you might find here in GQ, or at school or whatever. Difficult to explain, but I mean… basic human knowledge. Understanding. Something kids just seem to lack when they shouldn’t. But then, their parents lack it too… and we’re back to square one. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by pestie_ > \*\* > That, if I’m not mistaken, is an entirely different topic, and probably belongs in another thread. eh? no, it belongs right here. The girl is becoming a parent. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Sacrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Sacrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrip)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/98 "2003-12-04T15:56:29Z")
it is a different topic because, it seems to me, the OP wasn’t specifying those who might not have the financial and/or mental facilities to be ABLE to have and raise children. Rather, it’s something of a reaction to those who assume “well, you have kids, even in a world with 6 Billion plus, cause that’s just what you do, and there’s no sense arguing.” If a 16 yr old girl decides she doesn’t want children right then and there, very few will ask why not. If a late 20’s/early 30’s professional married couple says the same thing, whole different story. And that’s who I imagined the OP was asking to justify reproductive rights. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/99 "2003-12-04T16:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sweetfreak \* > \*\* > But I stand by my beliefs that not everybody that has children shoud have had them. Just because someone desires to have children does not make them capable of raising them. > Should a sixteen year old girl who can’t even take care of herself have children? I think not. \*\* When parents (and others) in this thread stepped forward to answer the question “Why do people children,” they were not promoting parenthood among minors. When people offered their own perspectives or those of parents they know, they were not saying that all people who want kids should have them. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699/100 "2003-12-04T16:08:54Z")
2 of my former friends had children at ages 14, and 15. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-have-children/215699.md?page=6)