# Why do people keep confusing victim and hero? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373 "2014-10-15T03:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/41 "2014-10-16T00:20:44Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > To an extent. I would consider the victims of 9/11 heroes. Their deaths opened our eyes to the murderous determination of Al queda. > > [snip] > > There’s a difference between something “not making any sense” to you, and you just disagreeing with it. You’re confusing the two. The things is that the way you are using the word “hero” here simply isn’t what it means by any standard definition. As **magellan01** says, every standard definition of “hero” includes an element of the hero doing something admirable, or at the very least having some innate admirable quality. Simply being a passive victim of happenstance does not fit the standard definition at all. Earlier you said “That’s just my particular view. You don’t have to share it.” Thing is though, language pretty much has to be about shared understanding. If you think potato means an edible tuber and I think it means a four legged companion animal that barks, things are going to get awful confusing. I’m descriptivist rather than prescriptivist when it comes to language and I recognise it as inevitable that words slowly change their meaning. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t consider that those who use words to mean whateverthehell they want are part of the problem rather than part of the solution when it comes to clear communication and understanding. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/42 "2014-10-16T00:26:35Z")
If you don’t crawl into a corner and die instantly when you find out you have a disease, apparently you’re a brave heroic survivor. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/43 "2014-10-16T02:18:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In this case, I agree “hero” is not the best term. But there are many places where a victim is a hero just for be able to put up with what happened to them. Generally speaking, this applies to the people who go through trauma but then come out the other end. They could have given up on life, but they didn’t. I do think that is still heroic. Resilient people? Admirable people, maybe, at best? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/44 "2014-10-16T02:59:37Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > To an extent. I would consider the victims of 9/11 heroes. Their deaths opened our eyes to the murderous determination of Al queda. But what did they do that was heroic, other than dying? That makes any murder victim a hero, no matter what the circumstances. Now, I would definitely say that the people who managed to over-power the hijackers and crash the plane in Shanksville were heros. But they risked their lives willingly – they acted, knowing that they weren’t going to survive, but to save the lives of others. That doesn’t make the other victims cowards, or diminish what happened to them – but they’re not heros. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/45 "2014-10-16T05:02:17Z")
‘Hero’ in general is an abused term. A hero is someone who puts themselves in immediate life threatening risk to save another, everything else is bravery or less. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/46 "2014-10-16T05:08:19Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Heroes are admirable people. > Victims are people that Life has fXXked over. > > Guess which one we have more of? > > So, confusion. > > folks don’t recognize a hero when they see one. I do think it’s often the case that heros truly don’t agree that they are one. They were in a certain circumstance and acted quickly with the only course that made any sense to them. I think most heroic acts aren’t conscious deliberations at all, which makes it the only scarce moments of true Altruism the human being is capable of. When it happens it’s remarkable and deserves to be recognized, all the more so because the ones that do it don’t really think they’re special. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/47 "2014-10-16T05:13:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In this case, I agree “hero” is not the best term. But there are many places where a victim is a hero just for be able to put up with what happened to them. Generally speaking, this applies to the people who go through trauma but then come out the other end. They could have given up on life, but they didn’t. I do think that is still heroic. > > I’m not sure there is a good word for what these people are, though. Victim doesn’t express the honor to these people. Martyr is close, but still not quite right. Resilient? Tough? Survivor? > [@BigT](#): > > One last thing: I can see an idea that reporters are heroes, but it would have nothing to do with them being victims. It would be because they chose to put themselves in danger in order to pursue a just cause. But they also have to be actually needed for that cause. > > But the reporter who escapes unharmed but still risked everything is still just as much a hero. I’d say no. We can shower them rightly with praise with words like “brave”, “fearless”, etc. In reality, they’ve just chosen to take on a dangerous job. Similarly, I wouldn’t say a firemen who goes into a burning building is necessarily a hero, either. With the training they have and the equipment, many times the risk is minimal. But when the order to exit the building is given, and one of them sweeps the floor again because he hears a voice and saves the person, that’s the stuff of heroism. I just don’t get the willingness to cheapen the word. I seems to stem from us wanting to shower praise on people who act admirably around danger. That’s not enough in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/48 "2014-10-16T05:46:04Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > It’s simply a subjective question. I would call ANYONE who attacks an unsuspecting or defenseless person a “coward” whether they’re a terrorist or a common street thug. I would also call anyone who raises awareness of an evil person or organization (anyone like, for instance, a VICTIM, of some crime of that organization) a “hero”. > > That’s just my particular view. You don’t have to share it. Well, that’s just fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/49 "2014-10-16T06:33:02Z")
I mostly agree with the OP, especially this part. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The worst thing is that I can’t correct people about this irritating tendency without looking like a bit of a dick, like I’m trying to take something away from a dead guy or extend some sort of respect to a terrorist. …and my response is capitulation. So if John Mace gets cut off in traffic, he’s a hero. If an armed gunman rappels down from the roof, crashes through a window, slides down the ventilation ducts into the garage and takes control of an armored car filled with cash and bullion, he is definitely a coward. > [@](#): > > …idiotic tendency… Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/50 "2014-10-16T17:28:23Z")
never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/51 "2014-10-16T17:37:35Z")
I agree with the OP, and think that this tendency arises simply from a desire to sympathize with the one group and denegrate the other - which is understandable enough, but which is watering down the meanings of these terms. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/52 "2014-10-16T20:06:54Z")
And the flag shall forever fly at half mast because a hero died somewhere recently and woe unto those businesses that appear unpatriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/53 "2014-10-16T20:49:45Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > And the flag shall forever fly at half mast because a hero died somewhere recently and woe unto those businesses that appear unpatriotic. Those businesses are cowards! ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/54 "2014-10-16T22:48:56Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Isn’t that more a martyr? That’s actually another one that people seem to want to cheapen, especially among Muslims. To me, a martyr is someone who knowingly accepts death rather than going against their beliefs, not someone who was killed in some circumstance vaguely related to a belief, or even someone who is killed doing something dangerous, but not _necessarily_ fatal, in support of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/55 "2014-10-16T23:53:18Z")
[quote=“Sitnam, post:45, topic:701373”] > [@Malthus](#): > > I agree with the OP, and think that this tendency arises simply from a desire to sympathize with the one group and denegrate the other - which is understandable enough, but which is watering down the meanings of these terms. Since 9/11, the word “hero” has been rendered nearly meaningless by ridiculous overuse. Kind of like the word “genius” having been devalued to where it now means “talented.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/56 "2014-10-17T14:35:36Z")
At least we still have “diva”, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/57 "2014-10-18T08:19:30Z")
There’s a women’s bike race around here being advertised called “Divas on Wheels”. Maybe I’ll send them a letter and ask what the cyclists plan to perform as they ride, because I have no idea why else the organizers would decide to use the word “diva”. It doesn’t even alliterate. I can think of a word that does, though: “women”. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/58 "2014-10-18T10:06:49Z")
Maybe they meant Daevas on Wheels and only gods Zoroastrians believe are false can attend. Edit: They need to be **really** careful if they end up sharing the road with any Mazda cars, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/59 "2014-10-18T12:02:42Z")
Of course! Why didn’t I see it before? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373/60 "2014-10-19T06:05:10Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > There’s a difference between something “not making any sense” to you, and you just disagreeing with it. You’re confusing the two. I realize that and in this case you are not making any sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-keep-confusing-victim-and-hero/701373.md?page=4)