# Why do people put the 'r' before the 'v' in hors d'oeuvre? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501 "2009-02-19T03:06:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![breakthesky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@breakthesky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/breakthesky)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/1 "2009-02-19T03:06:35Z")
everything i know about french tells me that this pronunciation is wrong. is it just the americanized way of saying it? ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/2 "2009-02-19T03:08:50Z")
yes ETA to exapand slightly, people will turn sounds into those that are most convenient for them. There’s nothing in English that sounds like the the French eu, and then to follow that up with vre (VuREH), it’s just too complicated for people who don’t care about getting it right. So euvre turns into the end of the word serve. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/3 "2009-02-19T03:10:24Z")
For the same reason that Americans visit pear-iss and not pah-ree. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/4 "2009-02-19T03:15:57Z")
Also the reason Brett Favre is pronounce Favrah or Farve, granted the latter has now become the ‘correct’ pronunciation because that’s how the Favres pronounce it but still… ---
**Author:** ![vintageloveletter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8e8cbc/32.png) [@vintageloveletter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vintageloveletter)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/5 "2009-02-19T05:12:08Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > yes > > ETA to exapand slightly, people will turn sounds into those that are most convenient for them. There’s nothing in English that sounds like the the French eu, and then to follow that up with vre (VuREH), it’s just too complicated for people who don’t care about getting it right. So euvre turns into the end of the word serve. Yes, but its not because people don’t care about pronouncing it right. There is no such consonant cluster in English, so it creates a phonotactic constraint, hence the resulting pronunciation. Another example is the Vietnamese surname Nguyen. Ask an English speaker to try to get that one. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/6 "2009-02-19T05:50:25Z")
> [@vintageloveletter](#): > > There is no such consonant cluster in English, so it creates a phonotactic constraint, hence the resulting pronunciation. I say this as a native French speaker: I think _hors-d’oeuvre_ may be one of the most difficult words to correctly pronounce for a non-native. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/7 "2009-02-19T05:53:48Z")
There once was a girl from Vancouver, Who when told it was not “horses doover,” Found she hadn’t the nerve To ask for _hors d’oeuvre_ So had soup as a saving manoeuvre. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/8 "2009-02-19T06:03:51Z")
For the same reason that so many Americans render “chaise longue” as “chaise lounge”. When words are adopted from one language into another , they tend also to be adapted into more familiar forms. In the long run we may see the American spelling of “hors d’oeuvre” to adapt to reflect the common American pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/9 "2009-02-19T07:41:55Z")
> [@vintageloveletter](#): > > Yes, but its not because people don’t care about pronouncing it right. There is no such consonant cluster in English, so it creates a phonotactic constraint, hence the resulting pronunciation. Another example is the Vietnamese surname Nguyen. Ask an English speaker to try to get that one. But it’s not impossible to learn to pronounce it correctly. Either they don’t care about getting it right or they just accept that it can be pronounced as the English language has transliterated it. It wasn’t really a criticism, just an idea of why people do what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/10 "2009-02-19T11:16:25Z")
One thing about that particular word is that we hear people pronounce it so differently to how it’s spelled that many people probably don’t even recognise “hors d’oeuvre” as being the collection of letters that represents that word “orderve” (in the same way that it’s not uncommon for people not to recognise “misled” as “miss lead”.) So it may be some time before they figure out it’s pronounced differently from how it should be. I speak from experience being someone who thought there was a word “orderve” that was rarely mentioned in print, and another word “hors d’oeuvre” that was rarely uttered aloud. I had a big :smack: moment when I realised they’re the same. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/11 "2009-02-19T12:33:46Z")
Rendezvous Not ren dez e vus :smack: hey i was 9 and it was the name of a brownie/girl scout camp in western NY ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/12 "2009-02-19T15:25:04Z")
I think what happens is the “eu” sound becomes “er” (because English doesn’t really use the sound represented by the “eu”, and “er” is about the closest thing to it that is commonly used in English), and the final “r” is just dropped, because again, English speakers’ mouths aren’t used to adding that little “r” sound after a consonant. (Like, I can’t pronounce “macabre” correctly to save my life.) ---
**Author:** ![Khampelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Khampelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khampelf)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/13 "2009-02-19T15:46:23Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > There once was a girl from Vancouver, > Who when told it was not “horses doover,” > Found she hadn’t the nerve > To ask for _hors d’oeuvre_ > So had soup as a saving manoeuvre. Second hand digression. A friend from high school told me of being in a fancy french restaurant as a child, and mortified his parents by announcing “Hey, they have whores de ovaries, can we have some whores de ovaries?” ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/14 "2009-02-19T15:53:03Z")
> [@Khampelf](#): > > Second hand digression. > A friend from high school told me of being in a fancy french restaurant as a child, and mortified his parents by announcing “Hey, they have whores de ovaries, can we have some whores de ovaries?” I’d leave the whores’ ovaries - they’re rather past their best. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/15 "2009-02-19T16:02:33Z")
Sorry, hijack… but the American pronunciations of “niche” and “foyer” are a pet peeve. My favorite is people from Gloucester who can’t pronounce Worcestershire. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/16 "2009-02-19T16:59:28Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Sorry, hijack… but the American pronunciations of “niche” and “foyer” are a pet peeve. > … Which pronunciations? “niche” I’d pronounce “neesh” (well, with not quite such a broad “eeee”). I’ve never actually heard people say “nitch” (which I’m guessing is what you’re referring to). “foyer” I know is more correctly pronounced something like “fwah-YAY” but at least in the US that’d come across as pretentious-sounding. So “FOY err” it is to us Yanks even to me, and I studied French and can be a bit of a pretentious snob about stuff. For example my undies are NOT lawn-jer-AY, dammit! (but I’m sure glad Feb-you-airy is almost over). ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/17 "2009-02-19T17:19:40Z")
The way I pronounce hors d’oeuvre is this: APP-uh-TIE-zer 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/18 "2009-02-19T17:22:34Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > For the same reason that so many Americans render “chaise longue” as “chaise lounge”. When words are adopted from one language into another , they tend also to be adapted into more familiar forms. In the long run we may see the American spelling of “hors d’oeuvre” to adapt to reflect the common American pronunciation. You see the same sort of thing in old German maps. Aside from the additional provinces that belonged to Germany at the time, cities and regions beyond those borders, and outside the German-speaking area completely, would be marked with German names. In most cases these names were vaguely similar to the originals in the same way that “chaise lounge” is to _chaise-longue_ and “or-duurves” is to _Hors d’oeuvres_. For that matter, it’s the same reason that people say "Brett FAHHrve instead of trying to pronounce _Favre_ as it would be done in French. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/19 "2009-02-19T17:31:54Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > I think what happens is the “eu” sound becomes “er” (because English doesn’t really use the sound represented by the “eu”, and “er” is about the closest thing to it that is commonly used in English), and the final “r” is just dropped, because again, English speakers’ mouths aren’t used to adding that little “r” sound after a consonant. (Like, I can’t pronounce “macabre” correctly to save my life.) I agree. I think the English pronounciation is about as close as you can get with English phonemes. Expecting someone to say it with a French accent seems a bit much. I get pretty irritated when we borrow foreign words (usually French) and butcher the pronounciation. This isn’t one of the words that bothers me. À tout a l’heurre is a better example, or in German, danke schön. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501/20 "2009-02-19T17:32:15Z")
eh, inserted in the middle of an american english conversational sentence, it’d sound pompous-assish to me to bust out an approximation of proper french pronunciation of hors d’oeuvres, like maybe rolling some r’s at Taco Bell to order some burritos. Not saying it’s never right to try the correct pronunciation, rather that usually it would just be silly. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-put-the-r-before-the-v-in-hors-doeuvre/486501.md?page=2)