# Why do people still parade the Confederate Flag around? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907 "2001-06-23T20:23:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![roryaxis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8dc957/32.png) [@roryaxis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roryaxis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/21 "2001-06-24T03:34:55Z")
It’s sad that too many people who fly the confederate flag do it for negative reasons, ie. they are racists, or ignorant, etc. However, to some it is a symbol of a lost cause. Lost causes are always very romantic, and in many ways the Civil War\* was fought between the South which was a Romantic pastural society still holding on to the past things like medieval chivalry, etc, while the North was a group of realist, Rational, factory buildings and industrialists. So, to some, the flag is a symbol of Romanticism over Rationalism. \*although technically it was a revolution not a civil war, as a civil war is fought between several factions over control of a central government while a revolution is fought by one side trying to separate itself from one power. The American Civil War was a revolution, the French Revolution was a civil, those wacky historians,eh? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/22 "2001-06-24T03:40:00Z")
Less well known reasons to display the Confederate Battle Flag: 1. So that people who want to hate southerners will know that that includes you. 2. So that people who make snap judgments about others will have an easier time figuring which pigeonhole to put you into. 3. Because you are pissed that the right of freedom of expression is only defended when it refers to expression of popular ideas. 4. You burned your American Flag, to protest the totalitarian attempt by the Republican Party to subvert your rights of free expression, and you needed something to fly on Flag Day. 5. Because, unlike most Americans you understand that the symbol is not identical to the ideal, and that people are not hurt by the expression of insupportable ideas, but are hurt by the repression of free expression. 6. Because Thomas Jefferson told you “Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” 7. Because you are an asshole, and that still isn’t illegal. ## Tris no comment ---
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/23 "2001-06-24T03:48:09Z")
[Sheepishly raises hand.] Is this going to be on the final? 😉 [Ducks and runs.] Patty ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/24 "2001-06-24T04:11:23Z")
The final will consist of a closed-book, two-hour essay test. That was just a pop quiz. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/25 "2001-06-24T05:37:12Z")
Oooh, I got a question for the test! Maybe for bonus points. “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to overthrow it.” Name the speaker. **MEBuckner** , that quiz rocked. I’m gonna have to print that out and save it. Essentially, I think we can boil the OP answer down to this: People who display the Confederate battle flag believe the Confederacy was _right_. They may offer different opinions on what they were right about, but I don’t honestly believe you can separate the states’ rights argument from the existence of slavery in the South. They claimed their right to secede because they knew the time for compromise over slavery was at an end and they wanted the question resolved in their favor. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/26 "2001-06-24T06:22:56Z")
The Civil War was fought over \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. A) Taxation without representation B) State’s Rights C) Slavery D) The sinking of the Lusitania The correct answer is C. C. C is the correct answer. Anyone who thinks the correct answer is “B” is the type of person who thinks they are a lot smarter than they are… ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/27 "2001-06-24T08:05:56Z")
I think that anyone who doesen’t answer both B and C is the type of person who thinks they are a lot smarter than they are. Simplifying anything like a civil war down to an issue makes you wrong:) ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/28 "2001-06-24T08:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalt \* > \*\*The Civil War was fought over \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. > > A) Taxation without representation > B) State’s Rights > C) Slavery > D) The sinking of the Lusitania > > The correct answer is C. C. > > C is the correct answer. > > Anyone who thinks the correct answer is “B” is the type of person who thinks they are a lot smarter than they are… \*\* Then that includes every American History teacher I ever had, including the ones in the college Honors Program. ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/29 "2001-06-24T13:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ressl \* > \*\*I’ve taken a few trips to the east coast where I saw it more often, but it still seems to show up everywhere. People with the headbands, stickers on their cars, and license plate holders all bear the confederate flag more commonly in certain areas. What are these people trying to say? My understand is that the south wanted slavery, and the North didn’t. They’re not getting anyone to chain and shackle a bunch of people. What are they trying to say? > \*\* Did we lose sight of the OP? “What ARE they trying to say?” Ask 'em! It MAY be … -That it’s a romantic ideal that they’re afraid will be lost if not preserved. -They believe the South was right. -They like the look of the flag. -They’re Civil War Re-enactors/historians/collectors. -They’re members of the KKK. -They’re NOT members of the KKK and they’re peeved that the Klan has embraced the CBF as part of their symbolism. -… or any of a few dozen other reasons. just my two cents worth. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/30 "2001-06-24T13:49:48Z")
cykrider, you’ve got to understand that history is subjective, even its nomenclature. It makes my skin crawl that you think that “what your history teachers taught you” is the last word in historical accuracy. History is written, taught, and learned with all sorts of biases, all over the world. And in various regions within a single country. Of course, in this instance, there’s nothing wrong with your choice of terms. I think “The Civil War” is probably the most universally accepted and recognized term for that war, but some of the other names are also acceptable. I just object to your justification that “my history teacher said X, so that’s what I believe.” As for the rebel flag? I think it symbolizes a lot of things about pride, tradition, etc., as others have mentioned. I don’t think it is _inherently_ a symbol of white supremacy or pro-slavery sentiment–but I do think that many people who are sympathetic to its other symbolism choose NOT to display the flag because they realize it is offensive to some and don’t like the connotations (mistaken or accurate) of bigotry. I would never, ever display the thing for that very reason. Southerners take a lot of crap from other people about their region, much of it completely unfair and unfounded and ignorant. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve heard intelligent, educated people say about the South. IME that increases that sense of “Southern Pride” amongst many living below the Mason-Dixon line. It probably also boosts the Confederate Flag’s popularity. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/31 "2001-06-24T14:32:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*cykrider, you’ve got to understand that history is subjective, even its nomenclature. It makes my skin crawl that you think that “what your history teachers taught you” is the last word in historical accuracy. History is written, taught, and learned with all sorts of biases, all over the world. And in various regions within a single country. > > Of course, in this instance, there’s nothing wrong with your choice of terms. I think “The Civil War” is probably the most universally accepted and recognized term for that war, but some of the other names are also acceptable. I just object to your justification that “my history teacher said X, so that’s what I believe.” > \*\* I’ll agree with you on this point. On other threads I too have said, “You can’t believe every word your teacher throws at you.” But in this instance I was (or was not according to **Anthracite** ) challenging the idea that the answer lies in a dictionary. Thanks Anthracite BTW for clearing that up. But I understand what you mean Cranky. Furthermore, I don’t understand how people can say that they’re supporting their heritage and tradition. Say my friend around the corner, lets call him Utter, decided to support his heritage and the ideas and traditions of his great grandfather by waving around a nazi flag. Is that ok if he doesn’t beileve in killing Jews? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/32 "2001-06-24T14:49:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > \*\* > > I’ll agree with you on this point. On other threads I too have said, “You can’t believe every word your teacher throws at you.” But in this instance I was (or was not according to **Anthracite** ) challenging the idea that the answer lies in a dictionary. Thanks Anthracite BTW for clearing that up. But I understand what you mean Cranky. \*\* I just re-read my own post and cringed at how crabby and pedantic it sounded. Methinks I shouldn’t have posted after staying out until 2 a.m. last night enjoying a Dopefest. Your response, I must say, was commendably level-headed, and I admire (more than I can express) any Doper who can take the high road when they could’ve easily taken offense. My hat is off to you; I mean it. And I sincerely apologize for having sounded more obnoxious than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/33 "2001-06-24T15:03:33Z")
Okay, so southern heritage is the real reason people display the Confederate battle flag. I didn’t realize that there were so many immigrants from the South to western Canada (where I frequently see the flag displayed on cars, trucks and motor bikes), proudly displaying their heritage. Sorry, but when I see the flag on display here in Canada, I draw certain conclusions about the message the person is sending. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/34 "2001-06-24T15:08:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > > \*\* > > > > I’ll agree with you on this point. On other threads I too have said, “You can’t believe every word your teacher throws at you.” But in this instance I was (or was not according to **Anthracite** ) challenging the idea that the answer lies in a dictionary. Thanks Anthracite BTW for clearing that up. But I understand what you mean Cranky. \*\* > > I just re-read my own post and cringed at how crabby and pedantic it sounded. Methinks I shouldn’t have posted after staying out until 2 a.m. last night enjoying a Dopefest. > > Your response, I must say, was commendably level-headed, and I admire (more than I can express) any Doper who can take the high road when they could’ve easily taken offense. My hat is off to you; I mean it. And I sincerely apologize for having sounded more obnoxious than usual. > \*\* Well thank ya! 🙂 And I totally agree with your point as well, histroy is very subjective. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/35 "2001-06-24T15:17:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*although technically it was a revolution not a civil war, as a civil war is fought between several factions over control of a central government while a revolution is fought by one side trying to separate itself from one power. The American Civil War was a revolution, the French Revolution was a civil, those wacky historians,eh? By the way, I don’t think this is really correct. A [civil war](http://www.bartleby.com/61/89/C0378900.html) is simply any “war between factions or regions of the same country”. A [revolution](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=64975&tocid=0) is “in social and political science, a major, sudden, and hence typically violent alteration in government and in related associations and structures.” (And a [coup d’etat](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=2217&tocid=0) is “the sudden, violent overthrow of an existing government by a small group…Unlike a revolution, which is usually achieved by large numbers of people working for basic social, economic, and political change, a coup is a change in power from the top that merely results in the abrupt replacement of leading government personnel.” A [rebellion](http://www.bartleby.com/61/62/R0076200.html) is “open, armed, and organized resistance to a constituted government”, and often has the sense of a failed revolution.) A revolution may or may not _lead_ to a civil war–there are bloodless revolutions (just as there are bloodless and bloody coups). And a civil war may not be revolutionary–if a coup goes badly enough, it may lead to a civil war. The [Wars of the Roses](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=65767&tocid=0) were civil wars, but I don’t suppose either of the competing factions had particularly revolutionary aims. The [English Civil War](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=33234&tocid=0), on the other hand, was both a civil war and a revolution, resulting in the overthrow of a monarchy and its replacement with a republic (which was effectively a military dictatorship); the republic was later supplanted by a restored monarchy in a [counterrevolution](http://www.bartleby.com/61/97/C0689700.html). I believe the generic term for a war in which a province or dependency breaks away from the mother country would be a “war of independence”, and in fact the _Britannica_ refers to the [United States War of Independence](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=76291&tocid=0) (AKA the American Revolution). The U.S. War of Independence can be fairly termed revolutionary in that it led to alterations in the structure of government, as well as the severing of political ties with Great Britain–we didn’t just replace George III with a new, American king. A war of independence would only be termed a civil war if it failed. A successful war of independence may also lead to a civil war within the new country, as different groups with different ideas about how the new country should be run compete for power. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/36 "2001-06-24T16:25:22Z")
**CrankyAsAnOldMan** wrote: > [@](#): > > As for the rebel flag? I think it symbolizes a lot of things about pride, tradition, etc., as others have mentioned. I don’t think it is inherently a symbol of white supremacy or pro-slavery sentiment–but I do think that many people who are sympathetic to its other symbolism choose NOT to display the flag because they realize it is offensive to some and don’t like the connotations (mistaken or accurate) of bigotry. I would never, ever display the thing for that very reason. > > Southerners take a lot of crap from other people about their region, much of it completely unfair and unfounded and ignorant. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve heard intelligent, educated people say about the South. IME that increases that sense of “Southern Pride” amongst many living below the Mason-Dixon line. It probably also boosts the Confederate Flag’s popularity. Well said, **Cranky**. I would add that there’s a strong _“Nobody tells me what to do!”_ ethos in the South. It’s been getting us into trouble and causing us to back ourselves into corners for over 150 years. And that same ethos explains why all the recent flag controversy has actually resulted in more Confederate flags being displayed on bumpers and on front porches in the rural South. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/37 "2001-06-25T01:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arden Ranger \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Kalt \* > > \*\*The Civil War was fought over \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. > > > > A) Taxation without representation > > B) State’s Rights > > C) Slavery > > D) The sinking of the Lusitania > > > > The correct answer is C. C. > > > > C is the correct answer. > > > > Anyone who thinks the correct answer is “B” is the type of person who thinks they are a lot smarter than they are… \*\* > > Then that includes every American History teacher I ever had, including the ones in the college Honors Program. \*\* Well, that is for you to be embarassed about 🙂 BTW America entered the gulf war b/c of oil prices. Anyone who says anything different is the type of person who would get along great with a “state’s rights was the cause of the american civil war” person. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/38 "2001-06-25T01:03:57Z")
Hang on, everyone, for the ride into GD. You may now officially debate. ---
**Author:** ![MysterEcks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MysterEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysterEcks)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/39 "2001-06-25T03:25:59Z")
I believe that most people who display the Confederate Battle Flag (nobody seems to display the Stars and Bars, though it was supposedly the official flag) regard it as a statement of non-conformity and/or a statement that they refuse to be intimidated–I don’t believe the majority of them see it as racist, or an endorsement of slavery. In effect, to them it’s a lot like the “Don’t Tread On Me” flag with a rattlesnake that appeared during the Revolution. But what gets me is that they are flying a symbol of the second biggest bunch of losers\* in world history. It doesn’t matter what you think the Civil War was about–there are opinions on that ranging from states’ rights to slavery to protecting the “southern way of life.” Whatever you wish to designate as the cause, the Confederates by their own actions destroyed it. The Civil War, which was provoked by secession, resulted in the end of slavery, the virtual eventual destruction of state authority _vis a vis_the federal government, and the obliteration of the pre-war southern way of life. The Confederate States ended up a ravaged, conquered, and occupied territory. So displaying a Confederate flag is like having a Los Angeles Clippers bumper sticker–you gotta wonder if they couldn’t have found a better way to make the point. * * * \*The _biggest_bunch of losers in world history were the German Nazis, whose “Thousand-Year Reich” of world (or at least European-plus) domination lasted a whole 12 years and ended with their own country partitioned into four pieces. (The Federal Republic of (West) Germany was constituted out of the American, British, and French zones.) Even leaving aside the ideology, displaying a Nazi swastica is the equivalent of a “The XFL Will Live Forever!” sticker. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/40 "2001-06-25T03:33:36Z")
The political regionalist meaning may be there for a lot of people, but I suspect that, for most people using it, it’s nothing more than Redneck Chic - the same “cultural” trend that has made NASCAR, country music, Harley-Davidson emblems, Branson, and professional wrestling popular today as well. With the slavery and civil rights eras receded far enough into the past that the flag doesn’t stand for hatred nearly as much as it used to, and with the economic development of the South since the advent of low-cost air conditioning, it’s easier to embrace a chic that represents being an ordinary, non-pretentious working person. That lets Redneck Chic fit in well with the national mythos, and it isn’t going away anytime soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907.md?page=3)