# Why do people still parade the Confederate Flag around? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907 "2001-06-23T20:23:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/41 "2001-06-25T04:09:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MysterEcks \* > \*_But what gets me is that they are flying a symbol of the second biggest bunch of losers_ in world history. > > The _biggest_bunch of losers in world history were the German Nazis\*\* It took you quite awhile to say that **IYHO** there is no difference between southerners and Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/42 "2001-06-25T06:58:58Z")
How can any of you say that someone displays a Confederate flag as a display of racism when there are so many reasons to display ANY flag? I mean, what are flags but vague symbols? And even if someone has a Confederate flag up because they support slavery, so what? It’s not like they own slaves, and as said before: “the right of freedom of expression is only defended when it refers to expression of popular ideas.” And that comparison of the Confederate flag to the Nazi flag comes pretty close to pissing me off, which very rarely happens. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/43 "2001-06-25T08:10:03Z")
Most of the people I know who display a CBF see it as a symbol of general rebellion, and to a lesser extent ‘Southern Pride’. In my experience people who fly it seem no more likely to be racist than those who don’t. I had one black friend who had a large CBF in his room when I was a teenager, and more recently knew a black guy who had a CBF bumper sticker on his car. People who assume that everyone who displays it are racists are the prejudiced ones. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/44 "2001-06-25T15:08:54Z")
Despite **MEBuckner’s** point, most people seem to display it because it’s a sign of rebellion. In our recent flag vote, we learned 60% of Mississippian’s don’t think of it as a racist statement anymore. Maybe it’s the liberals who need to get a grip? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/45 "2001-06-25T17:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > Despite **MEBuckner’s** point, most people seem to display it because it’s a sign of rebellion. In our recent flag vote, we learned 60% of Mississippian’s don’t think of it as a racist statement anymore. So the 40% who _do_ think it’s a racist statement don’t count? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/46 "2001-06-25T18:20:19Z")
ElvisL1ves wrote: > [@](#): > > […] with the economic development of the South since the advent of low-cost air conditioning, … which those wacky Southerners, in keeping with their redneck reputation, have dubbed “swamp coolers”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/47 "2001-06-25T18:26:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > In our recent flag vote, we learned 60% of Mississippian’s don’t think of it as a racist statement anymore. Utter nonsense. The vote was not about “Do you think the CBF is a symbol of racism?” It was about whether or not to retain a state flag that incorporated said symbol. Thus, the only conclusion you can draw on racism from the flag vote is that 60% of Mississippians didn’t care whether or not it’s a symbol of racism. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/48 "2001-06-25T18:30:59Z")
The Nazis were our enemies during World War II. The Confederate states were traitors and enemies of the United States of America. I would say the Nazi/Confederacy correlation holds water. Many proud citizens lately have been outraged at recent events concerning the breaches of security in the Federal government. No doubt some of these folks live in the south and display their Confederate flags proudly. A traitor is a traitor is a … Get the point? Germans are embarrassed about their Nazi past. Southerners need to choose. Well, maybe they already have. God Bless America! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/49 "2001-06-25T18:32:58Z")
(Yes, my conclusion there was intended as hyperbole.) ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/50 "2001-06-25T19:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\*It took you quite awhile to say that **IYHO** there is no difference between southerners and Nazis. \*\* That’s not what I’m reading from **MysterEcks’s** post. It seems to me that he’s saying that the Confederacy lost, and lost badly. Whatever your thoughts on the reason they rebelled in the first place, they took those cause(s) and consigned them to the dustbin of history, never to return, much quicker than would have happened naturally if they had not acted. On top of that, they had their cities destroyed, crops ruined, and a good portion of their young men killed, not to mention being militarily occupied for over a decade, for their trouble. The only thing sparing them from being remembered as the biggest collective fuckup in history is Hitler and company coming along and managing to be even less competent. In short, using the Confederate Battle Flag to display your southern pride is like displaying your deep and undying love of baseball by wearing a Tampa Bay Devil Rays jersey. Did I get that about right, **MysterEcks**? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/51 "2001-06-25T19:22:08Z")
jimpatro wrote: > [@](#): > > The Confederate states were traitors and enemies of the United States of America. secession = traitor ? Then I guess the original 13 States were all traitors of Great Britain when they openly declared their independence in 1776, too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/52 "2001-06-25T19:59:05Z")
As Talleyrand noted, after defecting from France to Russia, “Treason is simply a matter of dates.” Also, don’t forget that “History is written by the winners.” The American Revolution succeeded, therefore its participants were patriots. If it had failed, they’d have been traitors. ---
**Author:** ![ACLU\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@ACLU\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ACLU_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/53 "2001-06-25T20:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*jimpatro wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Confederate states were traitors and enemies of the United States of America. > > secession = traitor ? > > Then I guess the original 13 States were all traitors of Great Britain when they openly declared their independence in 1776, too. \*\* From the English perspective, they most certainly were. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/54 "2001-06-25T21:44:59Z")
Tracer - not quite. The 13 Colonies ere just that - colonies - and not equal members of the United Kingdom. Bear in mind that the Revolution started because they had no _legal_ recourse, meaning no representitive in congress. As far as I remember, at no point prior to the Civil War did anyone prevent the southern states from sending Senators and Congressmen to Washington. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/55 "2001-06-25T21:47:57Z")
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason” – [Sir John Harrington (1561-1612)](http://www.bartleby.com/100/134.1.html) ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/56 "2001-06-26T03:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > > In our recent flag vote, we learned 60% of Mississippian’s don’t think of it as a racist statement anymore. > > Utter nonsense. The vote was not about “Do you think the CBF is a symbol of racism?” It was about whether or not to retain a state flag that incorporated said symbol. Thus, the only conclusion you can draw on racism from the flag vote is that 60% of Mississippians didn’t care whether or not it’s a symbol of racism. \*\* Perhaps I should let **Saint Zero** correct you **minty** but we were not voting to retain our state flag. The State Supreme Court ruled that no state flag had been properly chosen and so in effect we had not had a state flag for many years. So we voted on the design for our state flag. One design was the one that we thought was the state flag and the other looked like it belonged on the back of a speed boat. The design incorporating the Confederate Flag won. There was a large turn-out for this vote, but a small black turn-out in comparison. However, there were more than expected black votes for the “old flag” and in a couple of cases it carried black precincts. **minty green** and I have participated in another thread about this subject [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=67979](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=67979) It is possible that we will be voting on another flag sometime in the future, but on this particular vote, it was not really a vote trying to get rid of the “old flag”. Also the old flag was supposed to have been installed in the late 1800’s, so unlike GA and SC it had not been designed in the 1950’s as a reaction to intergration. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/57 "2001-06-26T03:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > [Denial of reality] Uh, yeah kniz. You bet. The voters of Mississippi didn’t choose whether or not to retain a flag that incorporated the Confederate battle flag. Because in reality, Mississippi hadn’t had a flag at all for, like, a century or so. Matter of fact, there hadn’t been a state flag over the capitol or in the “Mississippi” entry in the Encyclopedia Apologetica for a long, long time. And all those voters were, like, asked to draw a pretty picture of a flag that they thought best represented the state of Mississippi. It’s entirely coincidental that the voters designed, without any sort of context or history, a design nearly identical to the flag that the Klan had been flying ever since the rednecks and peckerwoods got their asses kicked for owning slaves 140 years ago. How could I have been so deluded? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/58 "2001-06-26T04:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*Southerners take a lot of crap from other people about their region, much of it completely unfair and unfounded and ignorant. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve heard intelligent, educated people say about the South. IME that increases that sense of “Southern Pride” amongst many living below the Mason-Dixon line. It probably also boosts the Confederate Flag’s popularity. \*\* I’ve heard many Southerners complaining about how they are the victims of the last acceptable stereotype. Someone needs to tell them to get in line behind the dozens of other groups that make the same claim. I don’t think that the South gets any more insults than other parts of the country, maybe it’s just that people tend to notice it more when their own region is under attack. Still, I don’t see why southerners should take any more pride in their particular heritage than any other part of the country. California gets a lot of abuse in the national media, but people rarely go around waving the state flag out there. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/59 "2001-06-26T04:21:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ressl \* > \*\*What are they trying to say? \*\* This question is answered in a very well-written 1999 book, _Confederates in the Attic: Dispatches from the Unfinished Civil War_ (Vintage Departures) by Tony Horwitz. Here’s a quote from the Boston Globe review: > [@](#): > > …a personal, penetrating glimpse at a slice of America many of us didn’t know existed or would rather believe did not… Horwitz explores the intense fascination of the “hard cores” with all things Civil War while coming to grips with his own, with neither judgment nor ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![MysterEcks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MysterEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysterEcks)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907/60 "2001-06-26T04:49:54Z")
**Protesilaus** said > [@](#): > > Did I get that about right, **MysterEcks**? Thank you, **Protesilaus** –you got it exactly right. I’m a little surprised at myself for not anticipating that someone would manage to misinterpret what I said the way **kniz** did. **Alessan** said: > [@](#): > > Tracer - not quite. The 13 Colonies ere just that - colonies - and not equal members of the United Kingdom. I can’t see how that changes the treasonousness (is that a word?) from the British point of view of then-British subjects on then-British territory attempting to get rid of the British government. This isn’t materially different from the attempted secession four score and four years later–treason, however defined, is in the act rather than in the rationale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-still-parade-the-confederate-flag-around/69907.md?page=4)