# Why do people think the Hebrews were "Black"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600 "2004-08-19T19:57:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/21 "2004-08-20T22:26:50Z")
From the **O.E.D** on _ruddy_: > [@](#): > > 1. Of the face, complexion, etc: Naturally suffused with a fresh or healthy redness. > _[citations dating to 100]_ > . . . > b. Of persons: Having a fresh red complexion. > \*[citations dating to 1250] \* > . . . > c. Red with blushing _rare_ > . . . > d. Characterized by, or associated with, healthy redness of features. > \*[citations dating to 1809] \* > > 2. In general use, Red or reddish > \*[citations dating from 1386 to 1871 with no reference to hair] \* > . . . There follow three sub categories and three more definitions, none of which refer to human hair in any meaning or citation. I am not claiming that _ruddy_ could never be used to mean red-haired; I am pointing out that it never _has_ been used to mean red-haired (until the last few years when it has been dragged out in misinterpretation by various anti-semitic and racist groups from which it has _now_ begun to enter the general vocabulary). Given the scholarship of the translators of the KJV, I would tend to accept their translation to a word that _in their day, particularly_, meant “in the bloom of health” rather than “red-headed.” While the Hebrew word means “red,” I suspect that a meaning that could have included “red-haired” would have been noticed by some translator in the years prior to 1990 or so. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/22 "2004-08-20T22:28:15Z")
The first citation is to 1100, not 100. English is not contemporary with Koine Greek. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/23 "2004-08-20T22:41:06Z")
In the British Isles, the adjective ‘black’ used to mean (I don’t know if they still use it in this sense) anyone even a little darker than the lily-white Britishers, like a Mediterranean complexion. Like the so-called Black Irish, who are called that because they have dark hair. In that sense, sure, the ancient Egyptians, Jews, and Jesus certainly must have been “black.” ;j ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/24 "2004-08-20T22:46:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Given the scholarship of the translators of the KJV, I would tend to accept their translation to a word that _in their day, particularly_, meant “in the bloom of health” rather than “red-headed.” While the Hebrew word means “red,” I suspect that a meaning that could have included “red-haired” would have been noticed by some translator in the years prior to 1990 or so. I don’t know about the KJV, but I’m pretty sure that David was considered red headed before 1990, based on that verse from the bible, the same way that Esau was. In fact, David is considered, in Jewish tradition, to sort of be the anti-Esau. They were both red heads, which means they both had a tendency to violence. (There’s a tradition that redheaded people are prone to violence), but David was a servant of God, while Esau only served himself. So, David’s violence was constructive, while Esau’s was destructive. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/25 "2004-08-20T23:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know that I’ve ever seen Jesus portrayed as blonde and blue-eyed. It certainly isn’t a “ubiquitous” depiction here. Maybe it’s a regional thing where you are. It most certainly is common. In almost every movie of Jesus that I’ve seen, the actor has had blond hair and blue eyes. The actor in “The Passion of Christ” had blue eyes. The depiction of Christ as an Aryan is much more wide-spread than the depiction of him as black. I was born in the late 70s but it wasn’t until I was a teenager that I even heard of anything that challenged the Jesus=white concept. And even then–poor, self-hating me–I was resistant. And why wouldn’t I be? The Jesus in all those movies was white. The Jesus hanging on the wall at church was white. Moses was white too. The children’s bible we kept in the bathroom was full of illustrations showing white people. Not a token among them! The below link shows an artist’s rendition of a first-century Semite. The guy bears no resemblance to a Zulu warrior, to be sure, but assuming the drawing is historically accurate, Jesus would NOT be sitting in the front of the bus during Jim Crow. If he were an American citizen, he would not be automatically viewed as native-born–something only whites really seem to enjoy. These things definitely make him more black than not from the perspective of most African Americans. > **[What Did Jesus Really Look Like? (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/21/arts/what-did-jesus-really-look-like.html)** > > Article by David Gibson, co-producer of TV doucmentary The Mystery of Jesus, on question of what Jesus Christ may have looked like; notes that while question apparently held no interest for Jesus's followers, whose Jewish faith prohibited... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/26 "2004-08-20T23:14:48Z")
I will certainly grant that _admoni_ means red. I am less persuaded that when used of David it actually means “red-haired, freckle faced” in 1 Samuel 16:12 and 17:42. Genesis (25:25) explicitly compare Esau to a “hairy garment” so a reference to “red” would seem to include his hair. Are there any comparisons of David and Esau using the red theme that are actually very old? (I am certainly open to correction on my 1990s date, but I am still not persuaded that a reference to red in association with David includes his hair. My memory is that black hair was most associated with beauty in Hebrew literature. 1 Sam 16:12 is explicitly refering to David as good looking (in which the bloom of health would be a factor while a reddish hair might detract from that view) and 1 Sam 17:42 is pretty vague. (Goliath is disdaining David’s challenge _because_ David was young–and the description goes on to describe David as ruddy and fair of countenance.)) ---
**Author:** ![Silocke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Silocke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silocke)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/27 "2004-08-21T00:13:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It most certainly is common. > > In almost every movie of Jesus that I’ve seen, the actor has had blond hair and blue eyes. The actor in “The Passion of Christ” had blue eyes. The depiction of Christ as an Aryan is much more wide-spread than the depiction of him as black. Totally true. In fact, growing up as a kid in the seventies I actually thought Jesus was English. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/28 "2004-08-21T00:29:28Z")
> [@Silocke](#): > > Totally true. In fact, growing up as a kid in the seventies I actually thought Jesus was English. _Sings_ And did those feet in ancient time Walk upon England’s mountains green? And was the Holy Lamb of God On England’s pleasant pastures seen? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/29 "2004-08-21T01:11:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In almost every movie of Jesus that I’ve seen, the actor has had blond hair and blue eyes. The actor in “The Passion of Christ” had blue eyes. James Caviezel has blue eyes, but they were made brown digitally for the film. I shit you not. I forget where I read it, but stills from IMDb confirm it. I don’t see a lot of Jesuses, but I’m used to a fair but brown-haired and brown-eyed depiction. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/30 "2004-08-21T03:57:50Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > I think the trend towards a “black Jesus” is simply another in the long-line of historically false Afrocentric claims – the Africans pretty much invented everything good about Western Civilization but then the Greeks and Jews stole it and we’ve been covering it up ever since (e.g., Napoleon’s troops shot off the Sphinx’s nose because it was Negroid). The main feature of Afrocentrism is its total lack of an historical basis, so it’s not strange to see some start making other ridiculous claims like Jesus is black. Whatever. They’ve been trying for years to convince people that the ancient Egyptians were black, too. That’s the correct answer, folks. Sadly, no group of people are immune to racism and group-centered self-flattery. But Afrocentrism, as unscientific and ahistorical as it is, is at least a _positive_ kind of racist mythology; i.e., the goal isn’t to put other people _down_, it’s to raise their own self-image. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/31 "2004-08-21T14:26:20Z")
Not always, sure, but definitely if someone is saying that the “true” Hebrews were actually black and that the Jews of today have no relation whatsoever to the ancient Israelites. Or saying that “Ice people” lack the intrinsic goodwill and caring demeanor of African and Latin American “Sun people,” as [Leonard Jeffries](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Black_student_groups.html) of Temple University suggests. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/32 "2004-08-21T15:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > What he wasn’t was a light-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed Scandinavian fellow, which is how he’s ubiquitously depicted in the US. If it annoys you to have people suggest that he was “black,” perhaps you might consider how inaccurate and annoying it is to see him constantly depicted as lily-white. Are you willing to protest that depiction as well? I have no problem with people depicting Jesus as their own phenotype or similar. its an old tradition, and one with a fair amount of logic behind it. I do, however, object to people making assertions about Jesus’ genotype based on their political persuasion. Chinese depict Jesus as Chinese, black africans as a black african, and Scandivanians as a Scandivian. Incidentally, most of the ones I’ve seen in my church show him as black or brown-haired and pale, but not particularly racially distinct. In fact, if anything, I’d have to say he was vaguely southern Italian… ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/33 "2004-08-21T23:08:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In almost every movie of Jesus that I’ve seen, the actor has had blond hair and blue eyes. The actor in “The Passion of Christ” had blue eyes. The depiction of Christ as an Aryan is much more wide-spread than the depiction of him as black. The actor wore brown contacts for the movie. He also had makeup to alter his features to look Semitic. You are right to a certain extent about the blonde hair, though. Early Middle Ages stylized paintings protrayed Jesus as a blonde. ---
**Author:** ![EhhMon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@EhhMon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EhhMon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/34 "2004-08-21T23:32:19Z")
I think it’s just simple ignorance. A lot of people assume Jesus lived about the time mankind first appeared, somewhere just after we climbed out of the trees. With just a little thought, they’re thinking, “Jesus was one of the first humans, and humans come from africa, and Africans are black - voila, Jesus must have really been black!” Lots of people assume the bible was written in English too, because they just don’t really think about it that deeply. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/35 "2004-08-22T00:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Lots of people assume the bible was written in English too I really hope this isn’t true. If it is, our public school system needs some overhauling. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/36 "2004-08-22T00:27:10Z")
Hmmmm… Blond hair and blue eyes, in themselves, are not traits that are limited to “Scandinavians” and northern Europeans, and it is doubtful that these traits originated there alone - or center on one specific “racial” type. There are long standing blond populations in North Africa and the Middle East. These people are not the effects of relatively recent couplings with Crusaders or Vandals or even Romans, just as dark haired Irishmen didn’t wash up with the Spanish armada. Being “Caucasian” has almost nothing to do with skin color. It is a classification based mainly on bone structure. Caucasoid peoples include both Nordic Europeans and people from India. They range from nearly translucent to deep brown skin, but they all have roughly similar nasal profiles and bone structure, at least when compared to other “races”. I personally don’t consider terms like “Caucasoid”, “Mongoloid”, and “Negroid” all that relevant (and I am aware that the last two are very offensive to many people), but “Caucasian” is certainly not synonymous with “white” or “Anglo”. The “Aryans” were probably not generally blond and blue eyed, though there are certainly light skinned, green or blue eyed, and fair haired people in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran. What they have to do with Germans is anyone’s guess. Incidentally, many ethnic Germans are far from the blond haired blue eyed ideal. Look at Günter Grass or Joseph Goebbels. I don’t claim to be an expert in this field, but it seems that many very intelligent and educated people (as well as myself) occassionally repeat rather outmoded or simplistic views on race…even though I think that most of us know deep down, “race” is mostly pseudoscientific BS. (What ever happened to Collounsbury? Now those “race” threads were classics, even if people did get tired of them coming up over and over again) ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/37 "2004-08-22T00:37:55Z")
> [@Lynwood Slim](#): > > On the other hand, we know now that there has been a long existing black Jewish community in Ethiopa. > > Ethiopian Jews say they are descended from King Solomon, through the queen of Shebe. In addition, it is quite likely that many Jews fled to Ethiopa during the Babylonian conquest. ALL Ethiopians claim to be descended from Solomon and Sheba, not just the Ethiopian Jews. **Lynwood Slim** , I would have to agree with **Tom** on the _admoni_ = ! redhead. There is nothing to indicate that the verse refers to the color of King David’s hair. He’s “reddish” in skin tone. To say otherwise is quite a stretch Incidentally, I have met some of the Black Hebrews, the nutball cult the Israeli government stuck out in the Negev. They believe that Black Africans are the true Hebrews and Jews are actually usurpers. They also practice polygamy and won’t eat any “engineered” plants (ie, nectarines), because God didn’t create them. Which shows a stunning ignorance of the history of plant domestication, but whatever. They were a nice enough bunch. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/38 "2004-08-22T01:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Incidentally, many ethnic Germans are far from the blond haired blue eyed ideal. Look at Günter Grass or Joseph Goebbels. Shit, look at Hitler himself. He doesn’t look anything like the strapping blond-haired ubermenschen in all the propaganda posters. Neither do Adolf Eichmann, Heinrich Himmler, Herman Goering, Goebbels, or any of the other high-ranking Nazis. The Aryan myth is a farce. Kirk Douglas, the _Jewish_ actor who played Spartacus, fits the profile better than any of those guys. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/39 "2004-08-22T03:26:39Z")
Like I said, folks, it all arises from the modern racist mythology known as [Afrocentrism](http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600/40 "2004-08-22T04:30:30Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Like I said, folks, it all arises from the modern racist mythology known as [Afrocentrism](http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html) We noticed that you are repeating yourself. However, while it is certainly true that the Afrocentrism that has incurred your (legitimate) scorn is _one_ source of these tales, it is also true that various White Supremacists have made similar or related claims regarding the Jews over the years. Some of them set up an exclusion clause for Jesus and some of them do not, but it is not true that all and only the Afrocentrists have argued for black Jews or even black Jesus. From his single follow-up to his OP, it would seem that this thread is, indeed, addressing Afrocentrist issues. They are not the only nutacese in the world, however. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-people-think-the-hebrews-were-black/260600.md?page=3)