# Why do pro-lifers make exceptions for rape and incest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013 "2018-06-29T19:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/81 "2018-07-02T13:34:59Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > This reminds me of the claim that it would not be worth Bill Gates’ time to stop and pick up a $1,000 bill that he dropped: The math might be accurate, but the logic is severely flawed. > > If all black Americans has access to free and effective birth control, where do you think these numbers for 2016 would be? I suspect less than 500 thousand black births and ~0 black abortions. Obviously, I have no cite for this. Just logic. Except your logic is faulty. You’re creating a utopia that doesn’t exist. We can look at abortion rates in countries that have free and effective birth control and abortion rates don’t really change all that much. Sweden as an example has 25 abortions for every 100 pregnancies (a rate higher than ours) No one though would accuse them of not providing enough birth control. Canada has about 20% of pregnancies end in abortion, a rate similar to ours. There’s a limit on what education and free birth control can do - some of it simply due to failure rates and much more of it due to the fact that people wanting to have sex aren’t always known for the clearest thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/82 "2018-07-02T13:47:25Z")
I think the main rationale is those are two exceptions where “choice” really never was part of the equation. A choice is always made during consensual sex, and furthermore a choice is made to not use contraception. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/83 "2018-07-02T14:37:15Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > …Most women regret doing it. … I believe this is untrue: [Hardly Any Women Regret Having an Abortion, a New Study Finds | TIME](http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion-regret-reproductive-health/) There’s a link to the peer-reviewed study in that article. That cite says that 95% of women do not regret it. So, it’s not just untrue, but massively false. Do you have a valid, peer-reviewed cite that says otherwise? Otherwise, you’ve been lied to by your news sources and should consider getting better sources. RS ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/84 "2018-07-02T15:14:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Nobody has adequately explained how a woman is never at fault for consensual incest. It isn’t rational so it can’t be adequately explained. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/85 "2018-07-02T17:07:58Z")
Has there been a case of a woman of legal age seeking an abortion because of consensual incest since the Supreme Court ruled that states could not legislate abortion? ISTM that rape and incest get lumped together because rape is non-consensual by definition, and incest general includes a power imbalance of the sort third-wave feminists decry. If we are just arguing hypotheticals, that’s fine, but if so, then I would say the logic of the pro-life position would exclude abortion for truly consensual incest, just as it would for other kinds of consensual sex. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/86 "2018-07-02T18:32:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One of the reasons is that, in cases of rape and incest, the woman did not consent to the intercourse, and therefore did not give implied consent to the possible pregnancy. > > [Abortions due to rape or incest are quite rare](https://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html) so the question doesn’t come up very much, even though > > Regards, > Shodan > [@Shodan](#): > > I would prefer, if possible, that you didn’t make things up and then say you “got” anything. You said: > [@](#): > > One of the reasons is that, in cases of rape and incest, the woman did not consent to the intercourse, and therefore did not give implied consent to the possible pregnancy. Babies are not a punishment for intercourse - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse. Babies are a possible outcome of intercourse if they are not prevented or aborted. They are not the point. The point is an emotional and physical connection between two people. Do you have as many kids as times you’ve had sex? If not then you know that what you said is inaccurate. If there is a difference in whether or not the woman gave consent for the pregnancy being whether or not it is acceptable for her to abort the fetus, the it is you insisting that she accept the consequences of her actions. If you want to try to split hairs, and say that accepting the consequences of consenting to sex is any different from punishing her for consenting to sex, split away. > [@](#): > > No, it doesn’t. I would have said “obviously doesn’t” but you appear to be equating STDs and (from the pro-life POV) a baby. See above. By your logic, she gave implied consent for possible infection of STD’s. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/87 "2018-07-02T18:32:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Perhaps, but by that logic, any pro-choicer who says that late-term abortions should not be permitted is also controlling women’s bodies as well and restricting her choice/options. If a woman’s body is hers to decide what to do with, then why can’t she abort a 9-month old fetus just like a 2-month old one? In both cases, they’re in her uterus, and her uterus is hers. Not really, because in the case of a third-trimester abortion the practical effect of aborting a 9mo fetus is the same as giving birth to it. It’s not something that’s going to be done at a clinic. And late-term abortions are generally not done because some woman woke up in her ninth month and said hey I don’t wanna be pregnant anymore, because that experience is pretty much universal IME, at that point the only way you’re getting out of it is labor & delivery one way or another. Note that I don’t say they shouldn’t be permitted. Sometimes they’re medically necessary and there is no need to complicate that. Not in the first two weeks of pregnancy and not in the last hours. It’s a decision a woman makes with her medical caregivers and you don’t need to get in there with your opinions, it’s none of your business. Think of it this way, do you know of anyone who’s had a miscarriage? How upset was she? If it was early, probably a little upset for a little while. If it was a stillbirth, probably very upset and regarding it as the death of a child. (I know, everybody’s experience is different.) Almost everybody agrees there is a big difference between having a miscarriage in the first trimester and having one in the last trimester, physically and emotionally. So why shouldn’t there be a difference in the way it’s perceived? But it’s still none of your business. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/88 "2018-07-02T19:30:35Z")
Shodan, answer me plain and simple: Where do you stand on gay parenting. If you’re like most of the anti-abortion people I’ve talked to, you’re all for adoption until the word “gay” is put in front of it. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/89 "2018-07-02T19:36:23Z")
I’m pro-life and pro-gay marriage which naturally includes being OK with gay adoption. I’m not sure what it has to do with the original point though. A person’s views on other related social issues shouldn’t impact the argument at hand unless you’re just setting them up for an ad hominem attack. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/90 "2018-07-02T19:47:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By your logic, she gave implied consent for possible infection of STD’s. Please help me understand why you take exception to that idea. My reaction is “Of course she did;” every time we have sex we are taking a risk, however mitigated by birth control or barrier protection, of pregnancy and STI. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/91 "2018-07-02T20:09:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Babies are a possible outcome of intercourse if they are not prevented or aborted. They are not the point. The point is an emotional and physical connection between two people. Do you have as many kids as times you’ve had sex? If not then you know that what you said is inaccurate. What I said is entirely accurate - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse. I doubt I can explain it any more simply, so I won’t bother. > [@](#): > > By your logic, she gave implied consent for possible infection of STD’s. As mentioned, you appear to be confusing babies with STDs. Yes, on some level having intercourse runs the risk of STDs. So what? Since babies are not the same as STDs, there are not the same moral consequences in curing an STD as there are in abortion. You can escape the consequence of an STD without killing an innocent third party. From the pro-life POV, this is not the case with abortion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/92 "2018-07-02T20:26:38Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Shodan, answer me plain and simple: Where do you stand on gay parenting. > > If you’re like most of the anti-abortion people I’ve talked to, you’re all for adoption until the word “gay” is put in front of it. Perhaps if you were to read post #74, you will notice another way in which I am probably different from most of the anti-abortion people you have allegedly talked to. But your post was helpful - it gives some indication on how reliable your anecdotes of what people say to you are likely to be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/93 "2018-07-02T20:35:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What I said is entirely accurate - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse. I doubt I can explain it any more simply, so I won’t bother. > … And **k9bfriender** ’s response was also accurate; the biological imperative is not the only point to intercourse. There are psychological and social imperatives as well. Thankfully, as humans capable of applying rationale to our actions, as opposed to operating on base instinct, we can choose which imperatives are important to us individually. My wife and I, well past child-bearing age, still find reward in intercourse, and the biological imperative to reproduce has no role, and no point. If biology was the only imperative here, then why do we desire intercourse when the female is not in estrus, like so many of the other apes? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/94 "2018-07-02T20:43:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What I said is entirely accurate - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse. I doubt I can explain it any more simply, so I won’t bother. “Point” seems to impute more purpose than nature would be capable of, if we’re speaking biologically. Babies can be a result of intercourse, but then so can pleasure, or the biological aspects of emotional closeness. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/95 "2018-07-02T21:20:57Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > “Point” seems to impute more purpose than nature would be capable of, if we’re speaking biologically. Babies can be a result of intercourse, but then so can pleasure, or the biological aspects of emotional closeness. I think there is a valid evolutionary argument to be made that pleasure and emotional closeness increase the likelihood of continuing to have sex, thereby satisfying the larger biological imperative to reproduce. We can use sex for a lot of things, but reproduction is the reason it exists. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/96 "2018-07-03T00:00:09Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There are three sides to this argument, not two. > > 1. Pro-life > > 2. Pro-choice > > 3. The truth > > The truth is that abortion is a “grey area” every time and in every case. The truth is that sometimes abortion is the right thing to do and sometimes it’s not. The truth is that the reasons for abortion and the reasons against abortion are often both very strong, and the decision is difficult either way. If the correct answer is easy or clear to you in any particular question of abortion, then you have not really thought about it yet. If you think abortion is wrong, you don’t know what you’re talking about. If you think abortion is always a valid choice for those who make it, you don’t know what you’re talking about either. Isn’t the latter one also pro-choice? I consider many abortions to be morally wrong, but I also acknowledge that it’s too fucking hard to figure out which ones for sure, and the law is a very blunt instrument. That’s why I’m pro-choice. Because some moral wrongs can’t be solved by legislating. On the other hand, I don’t think that rape/incest exceptions paint pro-choice people as quite the hypocrites that people want them to be. If, say, murder were legal, and for whatever reason there were some situations where the general public just couldn’t bring themselves to pass a law against all of it, but I could get a law passed that made, say, 98% of murders illegal, well. That seems like a pretty big victory. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good (from that perspective). ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/97 "2018-07-03T02:04:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What I said is entirely accurate - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse… > > Regards, > Shodan [Anecdote warning] In the ~3 decades of my post-pubescent life I have had intercourse, literally, dozens of times. (Not bragging) Zero of those times have been for the purpose of reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/98 "2018-07-03T06:53:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, if it is that absolute. There are forms of contraception, like sterilization, that approach 100% in their effectiveness. But you understand the argument - if you accept a fetus as a separate human life from conception, then one cannot kill that life simply out of a desire to avoid the consequences of intercourse. Because you consented. > Correct, if it is consensual. That wouldn’t be any different than any other form of consensual sex for the purpose we are discussing. > > It sounds like we might be verging onto another exception, in order to save the life of the mother. If pregnancy is life-threatening, the pro-life position generally includes abortion under those circumstances as well. Consent is less of an issue. > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - I am explaining the logic as I understand it - I personally am pro-choice. You seem to understand it very well. You also present it exceptionally well. Pregnancy is a not quite 100% avoidable side effect of sex. It’s a widely known risk/outcome. There are preventative measures. It is a calculated risk. If a person consents to sex, without contraception(note: two or more choices have been made by now), are they being deprived of any right to a choice that they themselves haven’t already waived?That is, the choice to remain fetus free? I oppose abortion on moral grounds, as an unnecessary taking of life, almost exactly as Shodan has presented it throuout this thread. As a practical matter it’s a necessary evil on many occasions and I choose not to think about it to often. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/99 "2018-07-03T12:30:24Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > “Point” seems to impute more purpose than nature would be capable of, if we’re speaking biologically. It doesn’t imply any purpose. Biology has no purpose - it just operates. Reproduction is the _sine qua non_ of the continued existence of a group. Groups continue to exist if enough of its members produce viable offspring. If they don’t, it doesn’t. Biology doesn’t intend this, because biology and evolution have no intent. Producing viable offspring is the necessary and sufficient condition of biology. If the group does that, it continues; if it doesn’t, it ceases, and nothing else will matter. It’s tautological, but that’s how it works in biology. Groups exist to reproduce, and reproduce to exist. That’s it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/100 "2018-07-03T13:00:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Please help me understand why you take exception to that idea. My reaction is “Of course she did;” every time we have sex we are taking a risk, however mitigated by birth control or barrier protection, of pregnancy and STI. I can’t help you with that, as what you are deciding to assume is highly incorrect. Yes, STD’s are a possible consequence of intercourse. What I would take exception to is that, due to her consent of having intercourse, she doesn’t get to have treatment for her STD’s, as an analogy to the point that, because she consented to sex, she may not have treatment for her unwanted pregnancy. > [@K2500](#): > > You seem to understand it very well. You also present it exceptionally well. > > Pregnancy is a not quite 100% avoidable side effect of sex. It’s a widely known risk/outcome. There are preventative measures. It is a calculated risk. > > If a person consents to sex, without contraception(note: two or more choices have been made by now), are they being deprived of any right to a choice that they themselves haven’t already waived?That is, the choice to remain fetus free? > > I oppose abortion on moral grounds, as an unnecessary taking of life, almost exactly as Shodan has presented it throuout this thread. > > As a practical matter it’s a necessary evil on many occasions and I choose not to think about it to often. And what about in the cases where contraception was used, but failed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=6)