# Why do pro-lifers make exceptions for rape and incest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013 "2018-06-29T19:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/101 "2018-07-03T13:37:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It doesn’t imply any purpose. Biology has no purpose - it just operates. > > Reproduction is the _sine qua non_ of the continued existence of a group. Groups continue to exist if enough of its members produce viable offspring. If they don’t, it doesn’t. Biology doesn’t intend this, because biology and evolution have no intent. > > Producing viable offspring is the necessary and sufficient condition of biology. If the group does that, it continues; if it doesn’t, it ceases, and nothing else will matter. > > It’s tautological, but that’s how it works in biology. Groups exist to reproduce, and reproduce to exist. That’s it. > > Regards, > Shodan Without a doubt your tautology is correct, but that’s not the end of it, now is it? Sex has no intent, but humans do, and sex has value beyond procreation. If you’ve only ever had sex for the purpose of reproduction, and nothing else, well, let’s just say you’re missing out on a lot. And if you ever had have sex for purposes other than procreation, then you’re undermining your own point. Sex is necessary for procreation\*, but that’s not its only use, and those other uses have value and are desirable. We are more than our biology. \*Yeah, I’m deliberately ignoring more scientifically advanced methods for simplification. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/102 "2018-07-03T16:08:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What I said is entirely accurate - biologically speaking, babies are the point of intercourse. This is simply false. Biologically speaking, in humans and some other social species, the major point of sex is for bonding. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/103 "2018-07-03T16:11:46Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > If a person consents to sex, without contraception(note: two or more choices have been made by now), are they being deprived of any right to a choice that they themselves haven’t already waived? Why limit it to those two choices? You could just as easily (and validly) say that if a person consents to sex, without contraception, and then doesn’t have an abortion until the third trimester, then and only then should they be deprived of the right to further choice. What’s so special about the point where pregnancy begins, as the line where we don’t allow a choice to continue on the path towards having a baby? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/104 "2018-07-03T16:18:03Z")
It comes down to worldview, and whether or not someone has thoroughly examined their own. I suspect that pro-life voters who allow exceptions for rape and incest haven’t dug down to justify their stance beyond emotional arguments. I believe that life begins at conception, because no one has ever given me an objective alternative. I believe that all life is sacred, because of my faith. Therefore, I don’t support any abortion. I have no experience with “life of the mother” situations, so I will not argue that. For me, my decision was that an innocent person already died for me, and I wasn’t going to allow another to do so. I never had to even consider that choice. I also oppose the death penalty. Not because some people deserve a break or compassion, but because the justice system is imperfect, and because corruption or mistakes can’t be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/105 "2018-07-03T16:20:16Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > I believe that life begins at conception, because no one has ever given me an objective alternative. I believe that all life is sacred, because of my faith. Therefore, I don’t support any abortion. And you believe that after conception, all life is equal to all other life, and should be treated exactly the same? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/106 "2018-07-03T17:23:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And you believe that after conception, all life is equal to all other life, and should be treated exactly the same? Not at all. There is a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. The first is the guarantee of our nation’s founding documents. The second is fantasy. God Himself does not treat all lives equally. He did not promise equality of outcome. Those who obtained His favor will do well in eternity. Those who allowed the relationship between them to remain broken may do well in this life, but they won’t in the next. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/107 "2018-07-03T17:28:14Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Not at all. > There is a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. > The first is the guarantee of our nation’s founding documents. > The second is fantasy. > > God Himself does not treat all lives equally. He did not promise equality of outcome. Those who obtained His favor will do well in eternity. Those who allowed the relationship between them to remain broken may do well in this life, but they won’t in the next. Well, thanks for your views on what God does and does not. My question was, do you think that the tiny amount of cells that are present moments after conception should be afforded all the same rights as a child that was just born? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/108 "2018-07-03T17:39:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, thanks for your views on what God does and does not. > > My question was, do you think that the tiny amount of cells that are present moments after conception should be afforded all the same rights as a child that was just born? Rights, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/109 "2018-07-03T17:43:41Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Rights, yes. Thanks for your answer. So a woman who has a miscarriage must gather the remains that have been ejected and provide a proper burial for them, like she would do if her baby died? I mean, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to flush a new born baby that dies down the toilet, so according to you, it should be illegal to flush a miscarriage down the toilet as well, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/110 "2018-07-03T17:47:59Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > This is simply false. Biologically speaking, in humans and some other social species, the major point of sex is for bonding. Nope, not from the biological POV. You can have all the bonding in the world - if you don’t reproduce, your group dies out. You appear to be making a creationist, or at least an intelligent-design sort of argument - that there is a higher purpose to biology. That may or may not be a valid argument, but you can’t use biology to prove it. > [@Ben Shapiro](#): > > Facts don’t care about your feelings. Neither does biology. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/111 "2018-07-03T18:13:23Z")
So? Biologically speaking, the point of _everything_ is reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/112 "2018-07-03T18:19:51Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Not at all. > There is a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. > The first is the guarantee of our nation’s founding documents. And our country fails regularly to deliver on that guarantee. > [@](#): > > The second is fantasy. The second is a straw man. It is not equality of outcome that is sought, it is outcomes that result in at least a basic dignity of life that is sought. I have no problem with someone living in a mansion, while someone else lives in a tiny apartment. I do have a problem with someone living in their own mansion while refusing to assist others in getting off the streets. > [@](#): > > God Himself does not treat all lives equally. He did not promise equality of outcome. Those who obtained His favor will do well in eternity. Those who allowed the relationship between them to remain broken may do well in this life, but they won’t in the next. Let us worry about this life, that we can all actually agree upon the existence of, before you concern yourself with the your beliefs as to the destination of the immortal soul of another. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/113 "2018-07-03T19:12:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > So? > > Biologically speaking, the point of _everything_ is reproduction. Correct. Therefore the assertion that babies are not the point of intercourse, or that biology has some purpose beyond reproducing, is incorrect. I’m glad you at least got the point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/114 "2018-07-03T19:14:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks for your answer. > > So a woman who has a miscarriage must gather the remains that have been ejected and provide a proper burial for them, like she would do if her baby died? I mean, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to flush a new born baby that dies down the toilet, so according to you, it should be illegal to flush a miscarriage down the toilet as well, right? A newborn probably wouldn’t fit. You can however have the hospital dispose of it the same as they dispose of a miscarriage generally by incineration. A miscarriage after 20 weeks depending upon the state is typically treated the same as any other dead body. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/115 "2018-07-03T21:20:34Z")
I’m still struggling with the rape exclusion. For those who are opposed to abortion except in cases of rape, is the consensus that the rape has to result in a conviction in order to qualify? If yes, then you’re OK with abortion for rapes but only when the rapist doesn’t get away with the crime? That would mean an exemption for less than [1%](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system)of all rapes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/116 "2018-07-03T22:16:28Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m still struggling with the rape exclusion. For those who are opposed to abortion except in cases of rape, is the consensus that the rape has to result in a conviction in order to qualify? If yes, then you’re OK with abortion for rapes but only when the rapist doesn’t get away with the crime? That would mean an exemption for less than [1%](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system)of all rapes. And would a trial and conviction take place fast enough? This is a time sensitive situation after all. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/117 "2018-07-03T23:05:53Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > And would a trial and conviction take place fast enough? This is a time sensitive situation after all. This all seems overly complicated, and hard to make rules about. It seems to me that best practices would be to leave the decision up to the woman. Be much simpler, and have many fewer lawyers involved in what is really a medical decision. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/118 "2018-07-03T23:17:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This all seems overly complicated, and hard to make rules about. > > It seems to me that best practices would be to leave the decision up to the woman. Be much simpler, and have many fewer lawyers involved in what is really a medical decision. I agree it’s complicated, but to clarify, I’m not advocating rules. I’m just trying to understand viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/119 "2018-07-04T01:07:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I can’t help you with that, as what you are deciding to assume is highly incorrect. Yes, STD’s are a possible consequence of intercourse. What I would take exception to is that, due to her consent of having intercourse, she doesn’t get to have treatment for her STD’s, as an analogy to the point that, because she consented to sex, she may not have treatment for her unwanted pregnancy. > > And what about in the cases where contraception was used, but failed? Possible failure of contraception to prevent pregnancy was the risk accepted. We all know how to prevent pregnancy. I get it, having sex is great, but just like the rest of life it comes with responsibilities. Irresponsibly creating life then subsequently terminating that life becuase you couldn’t be burdened with not creating it in the first place is abhorrent. > [@CurtC](#): > > Why limit it to those two choices? You could just as easily (and validly) say that if a person consents to sex, without contraception, and then doesn’t have an abortion until the third trimester, then and only then should they be deprived of the right to further choice. What’s so special about the point where pregnancy begins, as the line where we don’t allow a choice to continue on the path towards having a baby? The first day and each day thereafter are equally special. I limited it to those two choices for the sake of brevity becuase I do not agree with aborting a pregnancy resulting from consentual sex, regardless of the amount of pregnant they are. This is becuase in my mind, I cannot quantify a unit of measure for that life that would allow me to determine exactly how much could be thrown out before I’d care. Though if the question were of the quality of life, that would be less clear cut for me. . ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/120 "2018-07-04T01:21:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This all seems overly complicated, and hard to make rules about. > > It seems to me that best practices would be to leave the decision up to the woman. Be much simpler, and have many fewer lawyers involved in what is really a medical decision. It seems to me it would be much simpler in a great many cases to not get pregnant in the first place. Then we rid ourselves of both lawyers and doctors. Assisted suicide is also a medical decision. Though I’ll admit that it’s a much less popular one. Which is interesting, at least from the choice aspect, becuase the life THAT choice ends is that of the chooser alone and its much less available as a medical procedure. Think of all the botched suicides resulting in horrible living conditions. Someone should do something about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=7)