# Why do pro-lifers make exceptions for rape and incest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013 "2018-06-29T19:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/121 "2018-07-04T04:45:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And our country fails regularly to deliver on that guarantee. So, it’s proper to kill inconvenient people so we aren’t reminded of that? > [@](#): > > The second is a straw man. It is not equality of outcome that is sought, it is outcomes that result in at least a basic dignity of life that is sought. > > I have no problem with someone living in a mansion, while someone else lives in a tiny apartment. I do have a problem with someone living in their own mansion while refusing to assist others in getting off the streets. So, a person should not live if they cannot be guaranteed an outcome you think is indicative of dignity? You want people living in mansions to assist the homeless. Are you telling this to the 1% with their multiple homes, or only justifying the need for abortion because of inequity? > [@](#): > > Let us worry about this life, that we can all actually agree upon the existence of, before you concern yourself with the your beliefs as to the destination of the immortal soul of another. I am explaining why I believe what I believe and cannot be argued into agreeing to what I find reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/122 "2018-07-04T06:35:25Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > …I believe that life begins at conception, because no one has ever given me an objective alternative… False. Life began either a few thousand or a few billion years ago (depending on how literally you take the Old Testament). It is a continuous process. Saying that “life begins at conception” implies that my sperm are dead, and so are women’s eggs. Objectively, they are not. Both regularly get flushed down the toilet, and nobody cares. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/123 "2018-07-04T09:51:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This all seems overly complicated, and hard to make rules about. > > It seems to me that best practices would be to leave the decision up to the woman. Be much simpler, and have many fewer lawyers involved in what is really a medical decision. Exactly. How likely is it that our overburdened courts can adjudicate rape claims quickly enough to allow for a termination? You’re either for a woman’s right to choose or you’re not. Making exceptions for things like rape or incest is unworkable. In any case it’s illogical to view a zygote or fetus as human or not based on the circumstances of its conception. Leave it as a choice to be made by a woman and her doctor. Some things aren’t the business of the state. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/124 "2018-07-04T15:56:09Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Saying that “life begins at conception” implies that my sperm are dead, and so are women’s eggs. Objectively, they are not. Both regularly get flushed down the toilet, and nobody cares. [Some do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ). I just point out to the “pro-lifers” that once you have granted the state the power to force a woman to carry a fetus to term against her will, you have also granted it the power to force a woman to abort a fetus against her will. When they protest that would never happen, I tell them to ask their liberal friends if they thought Roe v Wade would ever be challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/125 "2018-07-04T16:24:31Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > [Some do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ). I guessed what the link was going to be. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I just point out to the “pro-lifers” that once you have granted the state the power to force a woman to carry a fetus to term against her will, you have also granted it the power to force a woman to abort a fetus against her will. I don’t follow the logic. To “force a woman to carry a fetus to term” is incidental to protecting the life of the fetus. What you said sounds to me like “Once you have granted the state the power to stop me from beating my kids, you have also granted it the power to force me to beat my kids.” It’s a non sequitur. If and when it becomes feasible to remove a developing embryo/fetus from the womb without ending its life, that will change the whole conversation, and will separate the anti-abortionists who are motivated by concern for the life of the unborn from those who want to force the woman to face the consequences of her actions. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/126 "2018-07-04T16:33:34Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > Because they’re not really pro-life, they’re pro-controlling women’s bodies. Well you just failed an ideological turing test. No pro-lifer actually believes this. They have a mixture of beliefs that can easily be misrepresented as this, but this _is not what they believe_ and it helps nobody to lie about them like this. > [@UltraVires](#): > > This is the correct answer. A woman who engages in vaginal intercourse assumes the risk of pregnancy. Indeed, that’s the very reason animals do that sort of thing on a biological level. So what? Why is this a meaningful distinction? Every time I cross the street I run the risk of getting rolled over by an 18-wheeler; it does not somehow make this outcome desireable or good, even if I “chose” to assume that risk. > [@nelliebly](#): > > Since many pro-lifers are Christian (as I am), I’ll also point out that in the Bible, rape is considered an abominable sin. In Biblical accounts of rape, nobody doubts the women’s account. Its veracity is rightfully assumed. ``` "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." ``` - Deuteronomy 22:28-29 No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin, in the case of any sin that he may commit. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good. - Deuteronomy 19:15, although [this sentiment is found all over the place in the bible](http://www.silentlambs.org/twowitnessrule.htm), and gets _really_ ugly when you consider how unwed women who cannot prove they are virgins get treated according to Deuteronomy 22:20-21: 20If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you. The bible kinda sucks, man. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Part of the issue is responsibility. Take responsibility for your actions and accept the consequences instead of forcing taxpayers to foot the bill. Especially the taxpayers who believe your choice violates their deeply-held faith, and to participate in your actions is a sin. Does it work? No, seriously, this is an important question. Does it work? Does making people “take responsibility” _work_? Like, to go back to your statement earlier in the post: > [@](#): > > As a pro-life voter, I do not oppose access to contraceptives or “STD prevention methods like vaccines (HPV vaccine for instance).” I refuse to be forced to pay for it. You want it, fine. You pay for it. It turns out that handing out free contraceptives to people [actually works pretty well](https://rewire.news/article/2016/11/11/free-contraception-utah-program/). The evidence isn’t particularly strong yet, but it all points in the same direction - that free contraception helps prevent unwanted pregnancies. Similarly, I hear that Gardasil, without insurance, costs several hundred dollars for a series of shots. I can’t afford that, and most poor people can’t and will just live without it. On the other hand, it’s clearly a social good for HPV to not be an endemic disease. See, no matter how firm the stick, some people just _won’t_ take responsibility for their actions. And if we _force_ them to do so, the results end up… _problematic_. Think starving homeless children - never a good look. It’s especially bad as long as emergency rooms are forced to not turn anyone away, because that’s a massive expense taxpayers end up paying - so much so that even [housing the homeless may be cheaper than leaving them on the street](https://endhomelessness.org/study-data-show-that-housing-chronically-homeless-people-saves-money-lives/). So it turns out that sometimes, helping people isn’t just a matter of “this is good for them”, but also a matter of “this is good for us”. And once you get there, insisting on personal responsibility despite that basically amounts to saying, “it’s good for everyone involved, but it’s not good in the way I want, so we can’t do it!” > [@](#): > > And the argument that Pro-life believers don’t are about human life after birth is false. How many Christian families have fostered and adopted children? How many Christian ministries that care for children are there in this world? Who fights to ensure that LGBT parents can’t adopt? Who forces LGBT or atheist children out of their homes merely for not being christians? Who fights most ardently for “personal responsibility” in ways that are absolutely guaranteed to cause more unwanted pregnancies? (Hint: not secular humanists.) …Of course, the real reason this accusation keeps coming up is because the same christians who most rabidly shout about the value of life consistently vote for the party which is liable to cut programs designed to help needy children. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/127 "2018-07-04T17:17:26Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Exactly. How likely is it that our overburdened courts can adjudicate rape claims quickly enough to allow for a termination? > > You’re either for a woman’s right to choose or you’re not. Making exceptions for things like rape or incest is unworkable. > > In any case it’s illogical to view a zygote or fetus as human or not based on the circumstances of its conception. > > Leave it as a choice to be made by a woman and her doctor. Some things aren’t the business of the state. Things tend to get unworkable when you start over thinking them. File report of rape/incest with police, get abortion. No one I’ve seen is deciding whether a fetus is human or not based on circumstances of conception. If the topic were suicide, medial assisted or not, should we leave it to a person and their doctor? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/128 "2018-07-04T22:08:47Z")
[quote=“Budget\_Player\_Cadet, post:126, topic:817013”] The bible kinda sucks, man. QUOTE] Interesting and thoughtful post. I snipped this bit so I could explain. I’m not using the Bible as a resource in a scientific discussion, nor am I defending it. I think you’re the first one in the thread to actually quote the Bible, but for those who base their beliefs on a literal interpretation of the Bible AND who demand witnesses and a conviction for a rape exclusion, there’s certainly evidence in the Bible they believe in that says [they’re wrong](https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/what-does-the-bible-say-about-sexual-assault). > [@](#): > > The Bible is not silent about rape. The accounts of sexual assault against women are heartbreaking, even gruesome. But they are not brushed under a rug or hushed up. In fact, of the three accounts describing a woman who was sexually assaulted, each of them precipitated civil war. When Jacob’s daughter, Dinah, was violated by the son of a neighboring ruler, Shechem, her brothers murdered him, his father, and the all of the men of his city in revenge (Gen. 34). After the Unnamed Concubine was gang-raped and left for dead by men in the tribe of Benjamin, the other tribes went to war against them upon hearing of her injustice (Jgs. 19-21). And after Tamar was raped by her half-brother, Amnon, her brother Absalom killed him, and incited a rebellion against his father, King David (2 Sam. 13). Rape was neither covered up nor ignored. Instead, it was answered and avenged. It was such a cultural convulsion that it was answered with outrage and further violence. The cases of rape in Scripture tell us something about the cases of rape we are hearing today: These women must be heard and they must be protected. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/129 "2018-07-04T22:25:48Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Things tend to get unworkable when you start over thinking them. File report of rape/incest with police, get abortion. > > No one I’ve seen is deciding whether a fetus is human or not based on circumstances of conception. > > If the topic were suicide, medial assisted or not, should we leave it to a person and their doctor? There’s a difference between overthinking and thinking things through. But OK, let’s keep it simple: _File report of rape/incest with police, get abortion._ Would simply reporting the rape satisfy the rape-is-an-exception crowd? I’m curious because in date-rape threads here, there are quite a few people claiming that a lot of date rape reports are false. It’s inaccurate, but the belief is there. Aren’t those who believe in rape exception going to object that women will be making false rape reports so they can get abortions? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/130 "2018-07-04T22:34:07Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > I am explaining why I believe what I believe and cannot be argued into agreeing to what I find reprehensible. I would like to know the answer to my question that your beliefs lead you to, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/131 "2018-07-05T11:35:35Z")
Is there some part of your question that wasn’t addressed by post #114? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/132 "2018-07-05T13:47:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is there some part of your question that wasn’t addressed by post #114? > > Regards, > Shodan Well, the poster I was asking wasn’t the person who wrote post #114, so there is that. Also, I don’t believe that post was a serious answer, since I don’t think hospitals put delivered, dead babies into an incinerator. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/133 "2018-07-05T13:56:51Z")
OK, then you will need to explain your question. What \*\*do \*\*you think happens with a still birth, what do you think \*\*should \*\*happen with a still birth, what \*\*do \*\*you think happens with a miscarriage, what \*\*should \*\*happen with a miscarriage, and how should any of it change, if at all, if abortion is illegal? If you don’t want to discuss it except with one person, I wouldn’t use a public messageboard. If you do want to discuss it, go ahead. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/134 "2018-07-05T14:03:22Z")
What are you talking about? One poster stated that he believes that a few cells that are there a few minutes after conception should have the same rights as a baby that has been born. I simply asked him to clarify his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/135 "2018-07-05T14:05:35Z")
When Mary Tyler Moore had a miscarriage into her toilet, she had to fish the remains out and bring them to the hospital to prove she didn’t have an abortion. I’ve had “pro-lifers” call my sister and her wife “child abusers” for taking in two children and their mother when the mother was dying, and later adopting them. And telling me the children were not my nieces. If you ask a women who had three miscarriages before having three children how many children she has had, should she say “six”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/136 "2018-07-05T14:24:16Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When Mary Tyler Moore had a miscarriage into her toilet, she had to fish the remains out and bring them to the hospital to prove she didn’t have an abortion. That isn’t the way she tells the story - [according to her](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/01/lkl.01.html), she was in the hospital due to her miscarriage and that was when her diabetes was diagnosed. > [@](#): > > I’ve had “pro-lifers” call my sister and her wife “child abusers” for taking in two children and their mother when the mother was dying, and later adopting them. And telling me the children were not my nieces. _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/137 "2018-07-05T23:00:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That isn’t the way she tells the story - [according to her](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/01/lkl.01.html), she was in the hospital due to her miscarriage and that was when her diabetes was diagnosed. > _:shrugs:_ > > Regards, > Shodan I read her memoir. She did indeed fish the expelled embryo out of the toilet, not to prove she hadn’t had an abortion, but so doctors might determine what had caused the miscarriage. She was then admitted to the hospital, where tests revealed her blood sugar was sky-high. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/138 "2018-07-06T01:04:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > There’s a difference between overthinking and thinking things through. > > But OK, let’s keep it simple: _File report of rape/incest with police, get abortion._ Would simply reporting the rape satisfy the rape-is-an-exception crowd? I’m curious because in date-rape threads here, there are quite a few people claiming that a lot of date rape reports are false. It’s inaccurate, but the belief is there. Aren’t those who believe in rape exception going to object that women will be making false rape reports so they can get abortions? As noted by previous posters, the time it would take to secure any type of conviction, for much of anything, is longer than the human gestational period. The idea of needing a conviction of the rapist to get an abortion is a nonstarter. That’s about as thorough as the thought needs to be I think. Yes. In this hypothetical that I just constructed, a simple report of rape would suffice. I can’t speak for the “crowd”, or to the claims of “quite a few people” . I’d bet quite a few insurance claims have paid out on false police reports. In a real world hypothetical I’d imagine the punishment for either false report would be about the same. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/139 "2018-07-06T04:55:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks for your answer. > > So a woman who has a miscarriage must gather the remains that have been ejected and provide a proper burial for them, like she would do if her baby died? I mean, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to flush a new born baby that dies down the toilet, so according to you, it should be illegal to flush a miscarriage down the toilet as well, right? I didn’t answer because it’s irrelevant. I am talking about human life, not what to do with the dead. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013/140 "2018-07-06T04:58:09Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > False. Life began either a few thousand or a few billion years ago (depending on how literally you take the Old Testament). It is a continuous process. Saying that “life begins at conception” implies that my sperm are dead, and so are women’s eggs. Objectively, they are not. Both regularly get flushed down the toilet, and nobody cares. False equivalency. The divine spark is not in eggs or sperm, but in the zygote created when one of each unites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pro-lifers-make-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/817013.md?page=8)