# Why Do Pronunciations Change Over Time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 3, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651 "2016-08-03T17:35:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/21 "2016-08-04T16:05:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > SAHN-toh VOH-chay isn’t a typo? They actually throw in an N? The rest made sense, but that one is weird. Yeah, that seems strange. A typo in a list of pronunciations would be really hard to catch, thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/22 "2016-08-04T16:41:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I found a famous [radio announcer’s test for pronunciation](https://books.google.com/books?id=b0t9CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT101&lpg=PT101&dq=radio+announcer+test+for+pronunciation+flaccid&source=bl&ots=LeAfO3jcGQ&sig=sGXbbRViCDN_tu5Sm-kepaQQpVk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi18aW9iajOAhXMpYMKHXs6AL0Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=radio%20announcer%20test%20for%20pronunciation%20flaccid&f=false). A large percentage, maybe even a majority, are no longer pronounced the way they were formally preferred back then. That link just presents me with the cover and “No Preview.” Google Books is cantankerous with me insisting on changing the “.com” to “.co.th” and (sometimes!) presenting Thai language despite the umpteen preference cookies I’ve set for Google. It often lets me look at books, but now I wonder if some of the other “No Preview Available” messages were due to my location. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/23 "2016-08-04T18:00:49Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > For those of you wondering, the last syllable in plantain is pronounced as in curtain, victuals is pronounced vittles, and the N in kiln was silent back then. I still have that dictionary. As a child I read a book in which uneducated people often spoke of eating “vittles”. I knew the world they meant was “victuals”, and I thought it was the author’s way of showing their ignorance. In fact, they were pronouncing it correctly! Also, when I learned the correct “victuals” pronunciation a few years ago, I thought of an obscure Mother Goose rhyme which begins: “I knew an old woman and what do you think?/She lived upon nothing but victuals and drink.” Pronounced “vittles”, it scans better than if it were “vik-chew-uls”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/24 "2016-08-04T18:25:45Z")
[etymology.com](http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=victuals) > [@](#): > > victuals (n.) > c. 1300, vitaylle (singular), from Anglo-French and Old French vitaille “food, nourishment, provisions,” from Late Latin victualia “provisions,” noun use of plural of victualis “of nourishment,” from victus “livelihood, food, sustenance, that which sustains life,” from past participle stem of vivere “to live” (see vital). Spelling altered early 16c. to conform with Latin, but pronunciation remains “vittles.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/25 "2016-08-05T10:56:42Z")
The most obvious method is simply the linguistic game of telephone. You hear a word and try to mimic it, but you don’t get it exactly right. Over time, those changes become bigger. Written language doesn’t change as much, since you can plainly see what the word is. The period in which it did change a lot was before the printing press, and thus before most people had access to a lot of writing. So they’d just spell a word they’d learned verbally. Now that we can both hear and see words from large distances, the changes are much slower. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/26 "2016-08-05T11:39:14Z")
Good posts in this thread. Let me just add that, often, another factor is when lots of people migrate from one region to another, and intermarry with the natives. The parents (or one of them) may subtly alter their pronunciation of certain words, to facilitate communication – and the children will internalize the new style as standard, eventually passing it on to their own children. This is especially pronounced when the parents have different first languages, and so one of them is mispronouncing the language common to the couple (in other words, second-language interference, rather than mere first-language regional accent). If widespread, this leads to partial or deep “creolization” – that is, a simplifying of some of the language’s grammar or structure, not just pronunciation change. (This is not the thread to discuss the debates over “simplification”…just understand that languages usually compensate for the loss of one complexity – e.g., inflections – with the rise of another – e.g., rigid word order, or else meaning-changing tonality). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/27 "2016-08-05T11:47:14Z")
(Exapno alluded to some of what I just wrote about, in his first quoted paragraph in post 11). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/28 "2016-08-05T11:48:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [etymology.com](http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=victuals) So, a learned spelling back-formation. Same thing happened to “doubt.” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/29 "2016-08-05T12:49:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > That link just presents me with the cover and “No Preview.” Google Books is cantankerous with me insisting on changing the “.com” to “.co.th” and (sometimes!) presenting Thai language despite the umpteen preference cookies I’ve set for Google. It often lets me look at books, but now I wonder if some of the other “No Preview Available” messages were due to my location. ☹ [Here’s an NBC pronunciation handbook which must be of similar vintage, given that it also shows the “FLAK sid” pronunciation for “flaccid”](https://archive.org/stream/nbchandbookofpro00bend#page/166/mode/2up/search/flaccid) ([link to the item as a whole](https://archive.org/details/nbchandbookofpro00bend)), which is entirely new to me and makes me wonder what other interesting pronunciations lurk within this 1951 handbook. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/30 "2016-08-05T15:05:29Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [Here’s an NBC pronunciation handbook which must be of similar vintage, given that it also shows the “FLAK sid” pronunciation for “flaccid”](https://archive.org/stream/nbchandbookofpro00bend#page/166/mode/2up/search/flaccid) ([link to the item as a whole](https://archive.org/details/nbchandbookofpro00bend)), which is entirely new to me and makes me wonder what other interesting pronunciations lurk within this 1951 handbook. And sotto voce is shown as SOHT oh VOH chay. This strongly indicates that the SAHN in the other guide was indeed a typo. Incidentally, the British pronunciation would be SOHT oh VOH chee. Not only can’t we agree on how to pronounce our own language, we can’t agree on how to pronounce other languages which have pronunciations of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/31 "2016-08-06T03:59:22Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > When I was young I rarely heard anyone say OFF-ten, now I hear it more OFF-ten then not. This is a pet peeve of mine. No one has trouble with listen, hasten, soften, etc. Why is it so hard to say often correctly. I especially hate it when mispronounce by a singer. Horrible, ugly sound. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/32 "2016-08-06T13:40:46Z")
I think that back when populations were smaller and people didn’t typically communicate with people outside their own village, a lot of minor things that don’t have much effect today become magnified. Maybe one of the founders of a small village has a speech impediment that subsequent generations assume is the proper way to speak. Maybe some younger people decide a certain pronunciation sounds cooler and things change a certain way in one village but a different way in the village 100 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/33 "2016-08-06T21:37:35Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Incidentally, the British pronunciation would be SOHT oh VOH chee. I’ve never heard that British pronunciation, and the OED doesn’t mention it. There may be another transatlantic difference though, assuming your “OH” represents the “o” in “vote”. I would have the “o” sounds (at least the first one, and arguably all three) as the “o” in “hot”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/34 "2016-08-06T21:53:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Formal pronunciations have changed a huge amount since the 1940s. I found a famous [radio announcer’s test for pronunciation](https://books.google.com/books?id=b0t9CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT101&lpg=PT101&dq=radio+announcer+test+for+pronunciation+flaccid&source=bl&ots=LeAfO3jcGQ&sig=sGXbbRViCDN_tu5Sm-kepaQQpVk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi18aW9iajOAhXMpYMKHXs6AL0Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=radio%20announcer%20test%20for%20pronunciation%20flaccid&f=false). A large percentage, maybe even a majority, are no longer pronounced the way they were formally preferred back then. Item #3 is interesting–RAY-di-oh. I suspect this was actually necessary guidance at the time; I’ve seen old movies where somebody pronounced it RAH-di-oh, or RAD-ih-oh (rhyming with patio). The first of those is pretty close to the way the word is pronounced in some European languages, so I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that mass immigration from Europe, especially into and through NYC, was still very recent at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/35 "2016-08-06T23:03:58Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I’ve never heard that British pronunciation, and the OED doesn’t mention it. The [Cambridge Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/sotto-voce) gives it as the British English pronunciation. > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Item #3 is interesting–RAY-di-oh. > > I suspect this was actually necessary guidance at the time; I’ve seen old movies where somebody pronounced it RAH-di-oh, or RAD-ih-oh (rhyming with patio). The first of those is pretty close to the way the word is pronounced in some European languages, so I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that mass immigration from Europe, especially into and through NYC, was still very recent at the time. The Immigration Act of 1924 cut mass immigration to a tiny fraction. And why should Hollywood care how they said anything? Or even notice? If there was any influence, I could make a case for the European contingent in Hollywood. Even that seems a stretch, though. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/36 "2016-08-06T23:15:15Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > When I was young I rarely heard anyone say OFF-ten, now I hear it more OFF-ten then not. > > … Actually, hardly ever. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/37 "2016-08-07T01:51:52Z")
Pronunciation can change very quickly when there is no social reinforcement of the correct pronunciation: > **[For 40 Years, This Russian Family Was Cut Off From All Human Contact, Unaware...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russian-family-was-cut-off-from-all-human-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist)** > > In 1978, Soviet geologists prospecting in the wilds of Siberia discovered a family of six, lost in the taiga > [@](#): > > The daughters spoke a language distorted by a lifetime of isolation. “When the sisters talked to each other, it sounded like a slow, blurred cooing.” > > … > > there were only four Lykovs then—Karp; his wife, Akulina; a son named Savin, 9 years old, and Natalia, a daughter who was only 2. Taking their possessions and some seeds, they had retreated ever deeper into the taiga, building themselves a succession of crude dwelling places, until at last they had fetched up in this desolate spot. Two more children had been born in the wild—Dmitry in 1940 and Agafia in 1943—and neither of the youngest Lykov children had ever seen a human being who was not a member of their family. > > … > > Agafia’s unusual speech—she had a singsong voice and stretched simple words into polysyllables—convinced some of her visitors she was slow-witted; in fact she was markedly intelligent ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/38 "2016-08-07T05:46:54Z")
On a personal level, I find it interesting that in Northern California I now pronounce “no” as more like “naue” instead of “noh” as I pronounced it growing up in Indiana. Also, When I returned to visit my Indiana home after 2 years in the Washington DC area, my family had all acquired an Appalatian drawl. Huh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/39 "2016-08-07T17:20:49Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > But in Canada, no one says of-fen (well I do, but I am an outlier) and a great many Americans do too. I’ve lived in Canada (Montreal) all my life and a lot of people here say “of-fen.” I do. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651/40 "2016-08-07T18:44:23Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > I’ve lived in Canada (Montreal) all my life and a lot of people here say “of-fen.” I do. Good, this example was bumped. Goddamnit I’m going to keep making this funny until someone says he gets it. Also because it really is an on-topic post/new example for OP. I can hear you breathing out there… Hardly ever? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-pronunciations-change-over-time/761651.md?page=3)