You really are sheltered if you think I’m such an extremist. At least I don’t call you a “godtard”.
LOL Thats a pretty funny term. IMO some of the sweeping generalizations you make are pretty equivilant to that. Earlier in this thread.
this gem from a neighboring thread
I don’t find godtard any more offensive than these doosies. Do you think insulting large groups is bettter than expressing an opinion about an individual?
To be clear. The comparision I make is not that you are the same in every respect to these fundamentalists, but there are similarities IMO.
This might be better taken to the Pit, which was my impression when I wrote my post.
Or it might be better forgotten. As Der Trihs would probably be all too happy to agree with, there are some people who can’t be talked to. You can reason with them politely, you can show them the error of their ways, and they will continue to stubbornly do whatever wrongheaded thing they started with.
I think he and I might disagree on the identities of said wrongheaded individuals, though. And these fights never end well…
Agreed. I find it hard to resist an occasional quip when Der Trihs does his thing
but it is off subject. No more personal comments in the GD thread.
In defense, my comparision is intended to be an observation of style not a personal insult.
Fine, reject it all you want. I don’t necessarily condemn anyone for feeling as they do about atheists – but I do know that the word “atheist” is a far worse epithet than “heretic.” I doubt that anyone today even really knows what a heretic is.
You really should ask people of faith how they feel about atheists. Would they vote for one? Would they be good friends with one? Do they think atheists are moral people? Ask a lot of people. You’ll discover their attitudes aren’t as benevolent as you believe
Maybe it’s because you can’t threat atheists with hell?
We simply say: “There’s no such thing” 
Up untill my country got involved with a *real * scary religion, I never gave believing or not believing much thought.
I have catholic, jewish and protestant friends. We just accepted each-other.
Now - I’m sorry to say - I tend to look askew at religious people.
Yes, I know, most believers are fine and good people.
But I’ve met [and still meet] the intolerant and dangerous believers and I have to say: I’d much rather deal with atheists.
I hope you noticed that I said I reject it as the norm among religious folks. I am sure it happens and probably more than I would care to admit. I still feel that most folks know an atheist or two who is a good person either through work or in their family. It’s sad but realistic to think some people might like someone and see them as a good person until they found out they were an atheist. That’s their problem. Others, I’d like to think most, would realize that what they have discovered about their friend doesn’t change the fact that he or she is a good person. It might be an adjustment and an education.
The fellow at my church who said everyone who didn’t tithe was a heretic is certainly in the top ten. :rolleyes:
And by tithe, I mean give an actual 10% of gross income to the church, as he apparently does. We shouldn’t bother ourselves with how it’s spent, oh no, unless we want to become part of the vestry. And just giving time and resources doesn’t count – it’s 10% of your money, and 10% of your time, and 10% of your whatever else.
That made a nice bookend with his class earlier in the year where he said some very uneducated things about pagans. Sigh. I adore just about everyone else in this church… 
Sigh! I know what you mean. Even though I know most Christians are good decent folks the publicity that the radical right has gotten lately have me a bit edgy in dealing with the religious. I have little patience with those who spread BS information in the name of religion and then act as if it’s because they really care and love God.
I’ve traveled far and wide throughout this great land of ours, both as a devout Episcopalian and more recently as a man who believes in even fewer things than Crash Davis and I will tell you this with a great deal of certainty: If you have friends who profess to be Christians (as well over 70 percent of Americans do) and they do not know you are an atheist, and if you convince those friends that you are an atheist, and really explain to them exactly what that means, you will lose them as friends within the course of the coming year. They will be nice to your face, but they do not want you in their lives. Their linear thinking goes like this: Religion is the source of all morality; Dan isn’t religious; Dan cannot be moral; I don’t want immoral Dan in my life.
Yes, it’s a harsh assessment. Yes, I was disappointed about the friends I’ve lost because they found out I don’t believe in any god. Yes, I believed as you once did. But no more. What’s worse is the alienation of family that’s happened in my life. My wife’s youngest brother and I were once very close friends; we talked about religion and faith and belief systems all the time. He and his family are devout Mormons. Ron once told me that I was the only person in the family he could talk to about his faith (my wife’s family is steeped in the Roman Catholic church.) Then, during one of our late-night, 7-UP-soaked explorations of the metaphysical, I saw the light come on in Ron’s eyes. He understood what I am. It was the last time he was ever in my home, and we’ve never been invited back to his. He has cut himself and his family off from us, except for the compulsory clan gatherings that we attend. In what was probably his version of an act of “christian” kindness, he confided in me that he’d never betray my secret to his mother (my mother-in-law) but that he just couldn’t understand how his sister and I held our marriage together.
Yes, this purely anecdotal. But it fits perfectly with every discussion I’ve ever had with people of faith about atheism. As I said before – get out there and ask the faithful how they feel about atheists. You will be disappointed. But you will get over it.
Hmmmm … tithe … vestry … intolerance … I’m guessing you’re a member of a “traditional” Episcopal church, and the intolerant one of whom you speak would prefer using the 1928 prayer book? Or do Lutherans call their congregational governing boards vestries as well?
I usually say, “I hear it’s a dry heat!”
I can’t imagine that happening …since I am not an atheist. Now, I have had my spiritual beliefs refered to as dangerous by a conservative christian. That was fun.
That’s unfortunate. In my own family I have two brothers and a sister who are main stream christians. I have my own spiritual beliefs that are fairly incompatible with theirs and another sister who is an atheist. None of this prevents us from being close.
I’ll see what I can do. I have a couple of friends who are atheists as well. I’ll chceck with them about their own experiences.
When faced with the foolishness of this threat, my answer is always a quote from the Flaming Lips: “Hell has all the best bands, anyway.”
One time that I had experienced real rejection for being an atheist was when my father was dying. The mother of my sister’s boyfirend took it upon herself to form a prayer circle in the waiting room. When she invited me to join, I politely said “no, I am an atheist.” She then took it upon herself to try to convert me right there in the waiting room. This conversation ended up with her need to convert me bringing out my mother’s and sister’s displeasure at my lack of faith, and really made what was already the worst experience of my life even worse. Needless to say, I was not converted, and I have never come so close to punching a 60 year old woman in the face before or since. I am not a violent person, but I am serious. I can feel rage in my arms right now just remembering the moment. Before anyone thinks I am generalizing, though; She’s a fanatic, my mother isn’t, my sister is just a dumbass.
I have to say the only problem they could have had was that I did not join in, so the metaphor of walking away from a board game pretty much nails it. I really do not think they would have cared if I prayed to my toenails, as long as I prayed.
I concur. I know a number of them, and I’d say most of them don’t act so superior. But the few that do may give a bad name to those who don’t - just as some of the religious fundamentalists may give a bad name to believers, in the minds of non-believers.
Your not joining the prayer probably meant (in her mind) that you either didn’t care about your father dying, or you wanted him to die. Or maybe not, but that is the type of attitude I encounter all the time.
For my mental health, and to avoid a lenghty prison sentence, I have decided not to discuss my religious belief (or lack thereof) in front of anyone I don’t know is open minded enough.
Politics and religion. Leave em out of the conversation if you want to stay friends. It’s surprising to me that people’s feelings are so strong that they get angry or upset over these issues. Personally I think it’s about mutual respect. I claim the right to choose for myself what I believe. I enjoy new ideas and believe a good exchange of ideas is healthy and can lead to growth. I extend the right I claim for myself to others. I respect their right to choose for themselves.
In the case of the hospital the lady should have respected a persons right to politely decline, said their prayer and let it go. How would she have felt if an atheist had interrupted their attempt to pray in order to convert them?
I understand the desire of Christians to attempt to convert. Given their beliefs it I’m sure they see it as an act of love and concern {as well as bonus heaven points} They should be able to empathize a little with how it might feel to have someone say, “By the way your belief system is completely wrong, let me help you with that” They should be able to handle it if they get the same as they’re given.
The best witness is just live your life and be the best person you can be. I find people have respect for those who truly seek to follow the teachings of Christ in their day to day life without seeking opportunities to preach to others.
I’ve lost some (and good riddance) but I’ve kept a couple Catholic friends for many, many years. I agree with this statement in general terms.
Southern Episcopalians, but a little more high church than most (in that we do have a Rite I service). This fellow’s gentler for the most part than your usual Texas conservative, in that he generally just smiles and agrees to disagree when it comes to anything other than tithing.
But he does prefer the 1979 prayer book because the translation is supposed to be more accurate. The Rite I fans down here are mostly people my own age who came for the “smells and bells”, and at the end of our last Discovery class (confirmation requirements/church history/catechism/etc) our one British classmate led us in a really rather entertaining 1928 Compline service. Took me back a long ways to hear the ol’ fellow called the Holy Ghost. 
But most of our congregation is remarkably liberal – not just Texas liberals, either, but happily and openly welcoming our gay brethren and sistren into the fold without judgment.
By that description, of course, anyone who lives nearby could probably follow me to church and blow their noisemakers when I get confirmed this Sunday.
Yeah, she could have handled the situation better. I do not care if she or anyone else feels the need to convert someone, using a time of emotional pain to try to get the uper hand on your mark is a sick, sad thing to do. I didn’t really get to pick where the discussion of my religous beliefs happened. And, all I said was that I was a atheist. If they can interpret that as “I want my father to die” well, they have comprehension or mental issues.
My point is, though, that atheists do recieve worse treatment than heretics. As long as I was involved in some sort of religion, there would have been no problem. As it was, I wouldn’t play the game that everyone else was playing, so it was time to point me out. It wouldn’t have happened if I prayed to God, Budda or Spongebob. Why does this happen? I dunno. I am sure she probably thought that she was doing gods work, that idea convinces people to do some pretty idiotic things.