# Why do religious people try to prove God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895 "2018-04-05T21:23:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/61 "2018-04-06T20:12:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Disregarding your misunderstanding of atheism and its supposed problems,… I dont think he misunderstood atheism at all. Some atheists treat their atheism just like a religion, complete with proselytizing, etc. They push what they consider the “truth” just like religious zealots do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/62 "2018-04-06T20:18:13Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > It means that we have to use non-physicalist methods to attempt to arrive at the truth of any propositions regarding it. There are no such methods available that can arrive at any abstract “truth”, let alone any facts. What you have instead are mental gymnastics designed to support what you already believe. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/63 "2018-04-06T20:22:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There are no such methods available that can arrive at any abstract “truth”, let alone any facts. What you have instead are mental gymnastics designed to support what you already believe. That’s an unproven assertion that creates an untestable hypothesis. Poor science. Assuming the truth of the assertion, simply because such a method has not currently been discovered, that does not mean that such a method could not be devised in the future and it seems to me to be worth the time to attempt to find it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/64 "2018-04-06T20:23:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There are no such methods available that can arrive at any abstract “truth”, let alone any facts. What you have instead are mental gymnastics designed to support what you already believe. Simple test: Using non-physicalist methods, what do we know about ghosts? ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/65 "2018-04-06T20:34:40Z")
We know very little. We know that large numbers of people claim to have experienced some sort of contact with them. We know that there is an emotional component to many of these contacts. We know that there is documentation of these contacts going back thousands of years. We know that people generally regarded such contacts as forbidden in some way, but that this isn’t a universal belief. We know that most of these contacts are believed to be related to people who have died previously in some way. They are sometimes thought to be related to specific places, but sometimes not. I don’t believe that any philosophers have actually attempted to address the topic of ghosts, but one could research that. Unfortunately, I’m not an expert in ghosts. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/66 "2018-04-06T20:34:57Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > However, scientific method has no capability to address the supernatural. > > Anything said about God clearly does not come from science. You only say that because modern people define their “God” to never interact with the physical world in a detectable way. If I’m starting from scratch and describing what a world with a god would look like, it would almost certainly be detectable - hell it would be blarin’ obvious to everyone. The only reason we’re in this situation where people say God is undetectable is that no one has ever detected a god. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/67 "2018-04-06T20:45:18Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > We know very little. We know that large numbers of people claim to have experienced some sort of contact with them. We know that there is an emotional component to many of these contacts. We know that there is documentation of these contacts going back thousands of years. We know that people generally regarded such contacts as forbidden in some way, but that this isn’t a universal belief. We know that most of these contacts are believed to be related to people who have died previously in some way. They are sometimes thought to be related to specific places, but sometimes not. I don’t believe that any philosophers have actually attempted to address the topic of ghosts, but one could research that. Unfortunately, I’m not an expert in ghosts. So, a bunch of collected stories with no conclusions. A high school statistician could have come up with that much. Can you point to _any_ supernatural event where “non-physicalist methods” have given us something of substance that couldn’t have been arrived at using the scientific method? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/68 "2018-04-06T20:47:38Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You only say that because modern people define their “God” to never interact with the physical world in a detectable way. > > If I’m starting from scratch and describing what a world with a god would look like, it would almost certainly be detectable - hell it would be blarin’ obvious to everyone. The only reason we’re in this situation where people say God is undetectable is that no one has ever detected a god. Back when people were more “innocent” God would supposedly make regular appearances. Now that we have methods to check things out and verify them, God hides. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/69 "2018-04-06T20:58:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Simple test: Using non-physicalist methods, what do we know about ghosts? What do Ghosts have to do with Religion? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/70 "2018-04-06T20:59:23Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > Sure. > > However, scientific method has no capability to address the supernatural. This is false. The scientific method has no capability to address the _fictional_ - or more precisely, it has no way to demonstrate, prove, or predict things that aren’t real, and may or may not be able to disprove them based on available data. But supernatural things? If you can detect them or react to them, science can detect them and react to them - including studying them. Because all science is is an organized way of people noticing things, organized in such a way to filter out the biases and bullshit. If your “supernatural” stuff can’t be addressed by science, then that’s because your supernatural stuff is bullshit. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont think he misunderstood atheism at all. Some atheists treat their atheism just like a religion, complete with proselytizing, etc. They push what they consider the “truth” just like religious zealots do. It’s an extremely common slander to pretend that atheism/science and religion. Theists employ this slander to draw a false equivalence between the two, with the intent of implying that atheism/science is as flimsy and unsupported as the religions they’re accusing it of being. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/71 "2018-04-06T21:01:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s because the scientific method actually _discourages_ making shit up. > I don’t think bowing down to nonsense(or even just pretending to bow down) just to avoid a “conflict” serves anyone in the long run. The basic flaw in how woo “addresses the supernatural” is that a consensus isn’t even needed to make woosters happy. I’m sorry, but I’ve got enough on the table working with the real world without having to worry about stepping on the toes of untold number of different people and their untold number of different fantasy worlds. I don’t believe I said anything counter to that. The thing is, when it comes to stuff that actually matters, science does have an argument. On the other hand, attempting a frontal assault to invalidate religion or God or whatever is a fool’s errand, as it’s far more likely to entrench those who live on woo. There really are enough battles that we can win without having to take on the task of elimination of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/72 "2018-04-06T21:04:36Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Of course Abraham is a myth! And that’s a very good thing from a Jewish point of view! > > “Myth” is not the same as “hoax”, but many people pretend that there’s no difference. A myth is a story that stands for something very important in your life. A hoax, on the other hand, is not valuable - except to its perpetrator. > > The total historical inaccuracy of the Abraham story is beside the point. It’s not being admitted as evidence in court. We don’t have triplicate signed copies of the covenant between God and Abraham. Sarah was obviously not over 90 when her first child was born. And so on … BUT… The story is part of the foundation of what it means to be Jewish. The obvious fact that things never happened in the way it describes is irrelevant to its foundational status. Of course. There are plenty of other examples. For instance, the twelve tribes were certainly not begun by a child of Jacob with the same name. Each culture has founding myths, including America. The question is what you do with this information. If it is only shared by members of the culture, fine, but if members of the culture use the myths as justification for exploiting another culture, it behooves us to expose the belief as a myth. Which often pisses off the holder of the myth. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/73 "2018-04-06T21:05:47Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > We know very little. We know that large numbers of people claim to have experienced some sort of contact with them. We know that there is an emotional component to many of these contacts. We know that there is documentation of these contacts going back thousands of years. We know that people generally regarded such contacts as forbidden in some way, but that this isn’t a universal belief. We know that most of these contacts are believed to be related to people who have died previously in some way. They are sometimes thought to be related to specific places, but sometimes not. I don’t believe that any philosophers have actually attempted to address the topic of ghosts, but one could research that. Unfortunately, I’m not an expert in ghosts. Additionally we know that, going back thousands of years, people have claimed to interact with gods, demons, elves, fairies, brownies, and nature spirits. We know that people have claimed to learn things from these claimed interactions that contradict both each other and objective reality. We also know that humans have a marked demonstrable tendency to anthropomorphize, misjudge coincidences and statics, and fall for biases such as confirmation bias. I believe there’s ample evidence to suggest that humans have an inherent tendency to imagine all kinds of crazy shit, and to believe all kinds of crazier shit. There is not much evidence suggesting that these things become real because humans imagine them up. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/74 "2018-04-06T21:07:44Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You only say that because modern people define their “God” to never interact with the physical world in a detectable way. > > If I’m starting from scratch and describing what a world with a god would look like, it would almost certainly be detectable - hell it would be blarin’ obvious to everyone. The only reason we’re in this situation where people say God is undetectable is that no one has ever detected a god. I doubt we know what we would do if we were God. We’re just not that smart and we don’t have the information. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/75 "2018-04-06T21:07:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*Yes, there was a David, but other than him founding a "House of David’ that is about all we know of him, other than from the OT, and most of the early bits are recounting legend… based upon some fact, but we dont know what is fact. That’s why I said Davidic empire, not David himself. I can buy that there was a historical David, but if his empire was of the size stated in the Bible we’d have plenty of evidence for it. We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/76 "2018-04-06T21:07:58Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > I don’t believe I said anything counter to that. > > The thing is, when it comes to stuff that actually matters, science does have an argument. > > On the other hand, attempting a frontal assault to invalidate religion or God or whatever is a fool’s errand, as it’s far more likely to entrench those who live on woo. > > There really are enough battles that we can win without having to take on the task of elimination of religion. Well, there goes my plans for the weekend. If I’m not going to eliminate all religion, I guess I should spend the time vacuuming instead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/77 "2018-04-06T21:08:41Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > There really are enough battles that we can win without having to take on the task of elimination of religion. Who is trying to do that? You said > [@](#): > > I think we need to look in places other than “proof” of anything about the supernatural to figure out how to get along. All it does is promote a conflict. If this isn’t asking us to abandon the scientific method just to avoid a conflict, then what _do_ you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/78 "2018-04-06T21:16:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Back when people were more “innocent” God would supposedly make regular appearances. Now that we have methods to check things out and verify them, God hides. Actually I think they say he made regular appearances back in time before anyone living remembered it. And that he would appear tomorrow, to prove them right. God yesterday and God tomorrow, but never God today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/79 "2018-04-06T21:17:44Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > I doubt we know what we would do if we were God. > > We’re just not that smart and we don’t have the information. We do have information about what God supposedly told people. Now if you think that this is all bogus, what do you think god is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/80 "2018-04-06T21:21:36Z")
Even if some atheist was trying to prove that your personal deity didn’t exist, what the hell is the problem? All your god has to do is pop out of his inter-dimensional hole and say “Here I am-You lose!!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=5)