# Why do religious people try to prove God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895 "2018-04-05T21:23:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/101 "2018-04-06T23:17:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which is not a “Ghost” in the normal sense of the word. You dont really know much about what you mock do you? In all seriousness, that depends on how you define “ghost”, and also in how your religion defines “the Holy Ghost”. Mormonism, for example, doesn’t buy into the whole oneness-of-the-trinity thing, and to them the holy ghost is an actual spirit, a spectral person distinct from God or Jesus. As far as I know that particular spirit was never asserted to have once been a living human, but mormonism doesn’t categorize ‘spirits that have spent time in bodies on earth’ and ‘spirits that haven’t been physically incarnated’ as different types of entities, so to them, at least, the Holy Ghost is indeed a ghost. Obviously your mileage will vary on this if your religion defines thing differently. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/102 "2018-04-06T23:24:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I mostly didn’t want to write the exact same sentences twice with the only difference being the once word. Also it’s quite common for theists to lump the two subjects together (like in this very thread) because they see both of them as the same - attacks on their little religions. > > You can say this bullshit over and over and it never becomes true. “Hardcore” atheism, as in an assertive disbelief in any gods, is exactly as much a religion as disbelieving in dragons. Which is to say it is at best a single belief, not a system of beliefs, and in no way a structured system of beliefs like a religion even if it _was_ a flimsy faith thing, which it’s not. It’s a belief that’s strongly based in reality - if dragons or gods existed, they’d leave evidence which was consistent cross-culturally and which could stand up to a examination. No such evidence exists because fictional things don’t leave evidence. > > And yeah, stupid bullshit does get ridiculed sometimes. As for proselytizing, some snowflakes call it proselytizing when an atheist _fails to agree_ with them. There IS evidence of dinosaurs, however, and some of them could fly. Perhaps there’s more evidence of dragons than you realize. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/103 "2018-04-06T23:26:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > “and they proselytise” - Atheism doesn’t send out missionaries, of course, because there’s no organization to train them and send them out, because there’s no organization at all, because it’s not a religion. But that’s okay, because to a theist an atheist is proselytizing just by mentioning that they’re an atheist. Because the mere fact that an atheist lacks reason to believe in your faith is an attack on your religion’s credibly. By merely existing atheists attack theism - them mentioning it is beyond the pale. Missionaries are not required to proselytise. proselytise: _Convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another._ which is \*exactly \*what you are doing. In fact, your entire post proves strongly that you are preaching atheism as a religion. You are here preaching and proselytising. “My religion”? What _is_ **my** religion, do you think? Note that many others consider that _hardcore_ atheism is a religion of sorts, I am not original or alone with that. Legally, in fact, Atheism is a religion. > **[Court rules atheism a religion | WND | by WND Staff](https://www.wnd.com/2005/08/31895/)** > > A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion. "Atheism is \[the inmate's\] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature... > **[For First Amendment Purposes, Is Atheism a Religion? | Evolution News](https://evolutionnews.org/2014/07/for_first_amend1/)** > > Now getting courts to enforce this is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/104 "2018-04-06T23:29:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I “Hardcore” atheism, as in an assertive disbelief in any gods, is exactly as much a religion as disbelieving in dragons. … It’s a belief that’s strongly based in reality - if dragons or gods existed, they’d leave evidence which was consistent cross-culturally and which could stand up to a examination. … I believe in dragons, and I can prove they exist. In fact I have even seen one: > **[Komodo dragon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon)** > > The Komodo dragon (Varanus komodoensis), also known as the Komodo monitor, is a member of the monitor lizard family Varanidae that is endemic to the Indonesian islands of Komodo, Rinca, Flores, and Gili Motang. It is the largest extant species of lizard, growing to a maximum length of 3 m (9.8 ft), and weighing up to 70 kg (150 lb). > As a result of their size, Komodo dragons are apex predators, and dominate the ecosystems in which they live. Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including inver... > **[Pogona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogona)** > > Pogona is a genus of reptiles containing eight lizard species, which are often known by the common name bearded dragons. The name "bearded dragon" refers to the underside of the throat (or "beard") of the lizard, which can turn black and become inflated for a number of reasons, most often as a result of stress, if they feel threatened, or are trying to entice a mate. They are a semiarboreal species, spending significant amounts of time on branches, in bushes, and near human habitation. Pogo Th... ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/105 "2018-04-06T23:31:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Atheism has nothing to do with science. You can be religious and a scientist, you can be a diehard atheist and still think that Global Warming is a lie. > > Hardcore atheism is indeed a form of religion. They hold that belief strongly, without any proof, they ridicule other faiths and they proselytise. Hardcore atheism does not need proof, any more than hardcore “there-isn’t-a-flaming-propane-torch-on-my-friend-Wayne’s-head-right-now-ism” needs proof. All you have to do is look. Saying “you’re not looking enthusiastically enough” is ridiculous. Glancing up toward the sky and saying “Nope, don’t see him” is a perfect and final refutation of the existence of God, IF God is a being. If God is not a being, then show what God is, and we can start again. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/106 "2018-04-06T23:33:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which is not a “Ghost” in the normal sense of the word. You dont really know much about what you mock do you? How am I mocking? Ghost, Spirit, take your pick. Why is this entity called that if you assert that’s not what it is? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/107 "2018-04-06T23:33:32Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Hardcore atheism does not need proof, any more than hardcore “there-isn’t-a-flaming-propane-torch-on-my-friend-Wayne’s-head-right-now-ism” needs proof. All you have to do is look. Saying “you’re not looking enthusiastically enough” is ridiculous. So, because you can’t see it- it doesn’t exist? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/108 "2018-04-06T23:38:40Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > How am I mocking? Ghost, Spirit, take your pick. Why is this entity called that if you assert that’s not what it is? You need to educate yourself about religion. Here, read this: > **[Holy Spirit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit)** > > In Judaism, the Holy Spirit, otherwise known as the Holy Ghost, is the divine force, quality and influence of God over the universe or his creatures. In Nicene Christianity, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. In Islam, the Holy Spirit acts as an agent of divine action or communication. In the Baha’i Faith, the Holy Spirit is seen as the intermediary between God and man and "the outpouring grace of God and the effulgent rays that emanate from His Manifestation". > The Hebrew Bib... ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/109 "2018-04-06T23:41:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Missionaries are not required to proselytise. > proselytise: _Convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another._ > > which is \*exactly \*what you are doing. Nope. I don’t believe for one single second that it’s possible to turn a theist into an atheist by talking to them over the internet. Hell, I don’t think it’s possible to make a theist into an atheist by talking to them in person in real life! All I want you to do is stop with the stupid bullshit about atheism being a religion. It’s slanderous, and _deliberately intended_ to be slanderous, and you know it. It’s assholish bullshit and I’d much rather you just argue your damn points and go on with being religious without resorting to it. > [@DrDeth](#): > > In fact, your entire post proves strongly that you are preaching atheism as a religion. You are here preaching and proselytising. Me calling your arguments moronic bullshit isn’t proselytising - even if I wanted to turn you atheistic, I certainly wouldn’t go about it that way. But then you apparently think that insulting people is something religions explicitly do, so perhaps I can understand the confusion. But no, I’m not trying to “convert” you. > [@DrDeth](#): > > “My religion”? What _is_ **my** religion, do you think? I don’t know and don’t much care. To be honest I haven’t heard of any religion that includes insulting other religions as being among its major tenants, so I may not have even heard of it. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that many others consider that _hardcore_ atheism is a religion of sorts, I am not original or alone with that. Yeah, this line of stupid fallacious bullshit is hardly unique to you. You are not the first to sling it, not even close. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Legally, in fact, Atheism is a religion. > > [Court rules atheism a religion | WND | by WND Staff](http://www.wnd.com/2005/08/31895/) > > [For First Amendment Purposes, Is Atheism a Religion? | Evolution News](https://evolutionnews.org/2014/07/for_first_amend1/) Interestingly in the first link the legal fiction was presented as a way to protect the first amendment rights of the atheist in question, and in the second it was presented as a way to protect _theism_ from the government preferring _secularism_. But in either case it’s a legal fiction - atheism is no more a religion than Microsoft is a “person”. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/110 "2018-04-06T23:44:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I believe in dragons, and I can prove they exist. In fact I have even seen one: > > [Komodo dragon - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon) > > [Pogona - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogona) :rolleyes: I’m entirely willing to concede that _statues_ of various gods exist. Take that as you will. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/111 "2018-04-06T23:54:25Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Re: the hiddenness of God… > > Sure, and if God made a world which looks exactly like he doesn’t exist at all, then he would do it perfectly. That’s the world we apparently live in, so I guess that proves God. I’m very sure we have no clue concerning what god would do in just about ANY circumstance. After all, one interpretation is simply that this life is a test - a test about which we have been given clues, including that faith is a central issue. There is no way to suggest that this “test” is somehow detectably different than the universe we can explore with science. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/112 "2018-04-06T23:59:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I’m entirely willing to concede that _statues_ of various gods exist. Take that as you will. Just curious here … What do you think you are accomplishing in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/113 "2018-04-07T00:09:16Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > I’m very sure we have no clue concerning what god would do in just about ANY circumstance. > > After all, one interpretation is simply that this life is a test - a test about which we have been given clues, including that faith is a central issue. > > There is no way to suggest that this “test” is somehow detectably different than the universe we can explore with science. I agree, in theory, but the problem is that that idea itself provides clues. That is to say, in the hypothetical that this life is a test, then the god or gods (or so on) that created can have “Would create life deliberately as a test” to their definition. And so we would have a clue; the hypotheticals are narrowed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/114 "2018-04-07T00:09:30Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > Just curious here … > > What do you think you are accomplishing in this thread? If nothing else, he’s entertaing the hell out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/115 "2018-04-07T00:13:18Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t know and don’t much care. To be honest I haven’t heard of any religion that includes insulting other religions as being among its major tenants, so I may not have even heard of it. Pretty much all the monotheistic religions do, as opposed to the pagans who had no problem with other religions who worshiped other gods. Look at the Romans who more or less didn’t care what gods you had so long as one of them was the emperor. (Unless you were Jewish and thus crazy.) Today each religion just denies all the other ones, which is better than the old days where they tried to kill the others. Atheism just denies the same gods as the religions do, and just adds one more. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/116 "2018-04-07T00:22:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Atheism just denies the same gods as the religions do, and just adds one more. I’ve seen this point a lot, but I’m not totally convinced this is looking at the same thing. An atheist’s lack of belief isn’t dependent between religions; lacking belief in Christianity doesn’t have any affect on lacking belief in Buddhism. But for a religious person, I don’t know that that’s quite as true. A theist’s belief in Christianity might well have a strong affect on their lack of belief in Buddhism, in that they might well think there’s some convincing parts to the latter but their faith in the former overrides that. Put another way, I don’t think that for a religious person who lost their faith, it would be a simple matter of going “Well, I already don’t believe in anything else, so I guess I’m an atheist now.” It could be “Ok, well, maybe _that_ way is wrong, but what I still believe means this _other_ way makes more sense to me.” The denial is tied up, at least partially, in the affirmation. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/117 "2018-04-07T00:32:41Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I agree, in theory, but the problem is that that idea itself provides clues. That is to say, in the hypothetical that this life is a test, then the god or gods (or so on) that created can have “Would create life deliberately as a test” to their definition. And so we would have a clue; the hypotheticals are narrowed. Sure, but only one idea coming from our ignorance in a sea of unfathomable dimension. Even humans have come up with many interpretations of a god’s purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/118 "2018-04-07T00:40:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > All I want you to do is stop with the stupid bullshit about atheism being a religion. It’s slanderous, and _deliberately intended_ to be slanderous, and you know it. It’s assholish bullshit and I’d much rather you just argue your damn points and go on with being religious without resorting to it. This is a warning for personal insults. There’s no realistic way to construe calling something assholish that is separate from attacking the poster. Really, this whole post, and #100 only bear a slim resemblance to being on the right side of civility. If you want someone to abandon a position, you are free to refute it. You are not free to insult them. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/119 "2018-04-07T00:42:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Pretty much all the monotheistic religions do, as opposed to the pagans who had no problem with other religions who worshiped other gods. Look at the Romans who more or less didn’t care what gods you had so long as one of them was the emperor. (Unless you were Jewish and thus crazy.) > Today each religion just denies all the other ones, which is better than the old days where they tried to kill the others. > Atheism just denies the same gods as the religions do, and just adds one more. No, science doesn’t add anything like a god. Science examines how things work in our universe, using evidence. It’s only assumption is that we can make meaningful observations. There’s no legitimate way to consider that a religion. Science is merely a methodology of exploration. Being a Christian or an atheist or a naturist(?) or whatever doesn’t have to conflict with science, so we see people of all religious contributing to science both today and in the past. If some religion says they conflict with science, then I guess there is a conflict. But, that’s not caused by science. ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/120 "2018-04-07T00:44:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If nothing else, he’s entertaing the hell out of me. I see that as destructive in that it presents to others an attitude that is negative, does NOT represent science and does NOT move toward a resolution of any differences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=7)