# Why do religious people try to prove God exists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895 "2018-04-05T21:23:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/162 "2018-04-08T01:37:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And back to the beginning. The reason religious people say they are an exception is that they claim God is not covered by proof or science, but by faith. So if they truly claim this, why then do they try to find evidence to in fact “prove” that Jesus was resurrected etc.? I am (to go against a modern trend) “religious but not spiritual”. I think religion without gods can be a good idea. People gathering to do good things and maybe have lunch, with a shared sense of purpose. Even with songs and dramatic rituals to make our weird little subconscious minds happy, because life is better with that than without. I do what I can to follow the parts of what Jesus said that are compatible with the obvious non-existence of gods, and the parts of the Bible that seem valuable to me - and I ignore the rest. I guess I should join the Humanist Society, but there’s a church near me and it works out OK. Cognitive dissonance is fun. 🙂 I wonder how many religious people are actually like me, attending a church because it is somewhere to belong and somewhere where humans matter to each other, and who actually would drop the ridiculous claims if they didn’t feel under pressure to conform. And I think Humanist Societies (etc) often ignore the psychological reasons that humans get together in groups, or perhaps are embarrassed that we **want** to believe something, that we **want** a special shared experience, that we **want** rituals and ceremonies and other subconscious gobbledygook, and that we do not stop wanting them after we discover that the big man in the sky was a hoax. Sometimes I think they see “psychological” and try to chop it down to just “logical” - but every time you separate the word like that, you’re leaving a lonely “psycho” to fend for himself. 🙂 I think “God” is nothing but a subtopic of psychology, and I think in that sense it can sometimes turn out to be a good thing. It obviously can be a very bad thing too, even if viewed as only a feature of psychology. (For example, as already mentioned, some of the dangerous psychological problems involve God.) ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/163 "2018-04-08T01:50:44Z")
If I say I’m religious (which I obviously am), many religious people get the wrong idea. And if I say I’m a hardcore atheist (which I also am), pretty much everyone else gets the wrong idea. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/164 "2018-04-08T01:53:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Being a savior is what accepting Jesus means. There have been plenty if prophets, but Christians don’t worship them. In fact, accepting Jesus means whatever the accepter wants it to mean. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/165 "2018-04-08T02:04:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The title pretty much says it all. One of the key aspects of religion is that it requires FAITH. Faith is defined as belief in the absence of evidence or proof. I reject your hypothesis. I don’t believe all, or even most, or even many, religions require one to believe blindly, with no evidence. Trust in God, sure. Believe while avoiding any evidence? Heck no. I’m not even sure where you get that idea from. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So why is it that so many devout people are constantly trying to use science to ‘prove’ that God exists?.. I reject this hypothesis, too. I have run into devout people trying to use science to prove God exists, but I think that’s a very small fraction of the devout. So, why do some people do that? Lots of reasons that have already been given, but also, people are diverse. If you look at enough people, you’ll find some doing most anything. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/166 "2018-04-08T03:49:25Z")
To be fair, it is possible that the OP lives in an area where the most sickening and egregious forms of so-called “Christianity” are common. A lot of harm is done in the name of God, and it’s irresponsible to minimize it. But there’s also a distinct possibility of some straw-man stuff going on. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/167 "2018-04-08T05:06:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > OTOH, I had a roommate some years back that would tell them that we are satanists, and always thought that that was the funniest thing ever. When I was in college, in the 1980s, I was a big fan of various Marvel comic books, particularly the X-Men. One summer afternoon, I was the only person at home in the house that I was renting, along with several friends. There was a knock at the door – I opened the door, and saw a woman on the porch, wearing a conservative dress, with a little boy (maybe 5 or 6 years old) with her. She looked at me, very hurriedly mumbled something about Jesus, shoved a pamphlet in my hand, grabbed the boy’s hand, and practically ran down the stairs. I was pretty bewildered, until I realized that I was wearing an X-Men t-shirt – specifically, a shirt with a picture of [Nightcrawler](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/8f/70/898f7066d1f2350ce87d9919706bacee.jpg) on it. I’m pretty certain that she thought it was a picture of the Devil. 😉 (And, ironically enough, Nightcrawler was one of the few Marvel superheroes who was overtly depicted as being Christian.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/168 "2018-04-08T06:46:45Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I am (to go against a modern trend) “religious but not spiritual”. I think religion without gods can be a good idea. People gathering to do good things and maybe have lunch, with a shared sense of purpose. Even with songs and dramatic rituals to make our weird little subconscious minds happy, because life is better with that than without. I do what I can to follow the parts of what Jesus said that are compatible with the obvious non-existence of gods, and the parts of the Bible that seem valuable to me - and I ignore the rest. I guess I should join the Humanist Society, but there’s a church near me and it works out OK. Cognitive dissonance is fun. 🙂 I got married in the Ethical Culture Society (with no mention of any god) so I understand where you are coming from. I don’t belong to any of these since I wouldn’t join any church which would have me for a member. [/Groucho] Aren’t there any UU churches around you? If I was a joiner I might join something like this (though I’d prefer truly secular clubs) but I’d feel bad about being in a normal temple and to be expected to sing thing about God which I didn’t believe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/169 "2018-04-08T06:48:22Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > In fact, accepting Jesus means whatever the accepter wants it to mean. In our society you can get away with that, but for most of the history of Christianity such an attitude would land you in deep doo-doo. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/170 "2018-04-08T06:49:57Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > To be fair, it is possible that the OP lives in an area where the most sickening and egregious forms of so-called “Christianity” are common. A lot of harm is done in the name of God, and it’s irresponsible to minimize it. But there’s also a distinct possibility of some straw-man stuff going on. Sam lives in Western Canada - Manitoba or some such. (I know, but I forget.) East of BC, west of Ontario. I don’t know what religion is like there, but it ain’t the Bible Belt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/171 "2018-04-08T06:57:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What do you mean by greater than man? I can easily accept that there are entities much more advanced and smarter than we are. Heck, we can do much of what God was supposed to do in the Bible. We raise people from what they would have considered being dead. We can make the sun stand still - well not stand still, but we could shine a big spotlight on the battlefield. > Supernatural stuff is something else. I’m pretty sure a modern military, or even a well-armed police force, would not be thwarted by iron chariots. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/172 "2018-04-08T07:46:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Sam lives in Western Canada - Manitoba or some such. (I know, but I forget.) East of BC, west of Ontario. I don’t know what religion is like there, but it ain’t the Bible Belt. There might be pockets of crazy here and there, but you’re right, nothing like the congregational numbers or proportional prevalence (or numbers of child abusers or wife beaters or gay bashers or assorted others) of the Evil Belt. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/173 "2018-04-08T10:38:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > … I’d feel bad about being in a normal temple and to be expected to sing thing about God which I didn’t believe. A large fraction of practicing Reform Jews don’t believe in God, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/174 "2018-04-08T10:39:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Sam lives in Western Canada - Manitoba or some such. (I know, but I forget.) East of BC, west of Ontario. I don’t know what religion is like there, but it ain’t the Bible Belt. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There might be pockets of crazy here and there, but you’re right, nothing like the congregational numbers or proportional prevalence (or numbers of child abusers or wife beaters or gay bashers or assorted others) of the Evil Belt. huh, I thought that was Canada’s Bible belt. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/175 "2018-04-08T12:58:40Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > You’re just having a problem with what infinity means. > > What number you divide by infinity doesn’t actually matter. I’m not dividing by infinity. I’m saying that many ideas as compared to few ideas vs. one sole single idea vs. zero makes the latter idea more powerful. No division, simply a comparison of a finite gap and an infinite one. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/176 "2018-04-08T13:12:07Z")
> [@WillReadmore](#): > > Sure. So, Islam and Judaism don’t believe Jesus is god. Thus what a Christian is taught is to reject in the strongest, most irreconcilable terms possible these versions of the Abrahamic faith (faiths far more closely aligned that the vast majority of world religions). Whether direction came from a pastor is irrelevant, isn’t it? Whatever the source, the teaching is definitely successful today, as we see Christian fundamentalists ready to take direct physical action against those who even appear to be adherents of Islam. We see evangelicals explicitly demanding support for Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. I don’t believe these Christians came to that conclusion on their own. I’m sure that’s true for some Christians. But I don’t see it as necessary to form those opinions. Whether it came from a pastor is relevant when we’re talking about what happens when someone loses faith, since that might be, or might not be, one of the factors involved. If a large portion of your faith came from your pastor, and it’s them you’re questioning or information from them, then it can have a wider effect in determining where you go from there afterwards than if it’s a problem arising from just one source. > [@](#): > > The analysis of which you speak is the most subjective analysis that is humanly possible, isn’t it? It’s about what makes ME happy. It’s about analysis without the necessity of continued testing by the hard questions of experts. You even propose that this “analysis” could be toppled by an ad or “something that looked appealing”. > > Isn’t that proof of the total inadequacy of that method of analysis? > > Shouldn’t that kind of “analysis” be rejected as a wholesale disaster if the objective is to move toward truth of any kind? Actually, it was **Voyager** who first brought up the “ad or something that looked appealing” idea. I don’t know how true it is, but it certainly seems possible. Is it proof of the total inadequacy of that method of analysis? I think the answer is contained within your next question; it depends on what the objective is. In the situation \*\*Voyager \*\*brought up, the objective was “to find answers that satisfy”. If the answers don’t satisfy, that seems to be about the most excellent analysis possible. Fundamentally no other form of analysis can so readily get to the source; we can read history books or religious texts, and misinterpret them, or ask questions of others and be misled. But we have ready access to our own selves to investigate whether we’re satisfied with the answers we have. It’s always possible to misunderstand even ourselves, but that’s a factor that goes into every analysis. In terms of if you want to move towards truth… the “any kind” part is tricky. Personal truth, by which I’m meaning not some kind of personal facts but understanding oneself, seems to me to be about being honest about the effect the world has on you and comprehending it. Seeing an ad, reacting to it, but rejecting it because it’s a facile response, doesn’t get you towards the truth about yourself. There’s no use in poring over texts to discover truth if the tool being used to judge, oneself, isn’t honest. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/177 "2018-04-08T14:51:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Then use religious teachings to predict something. Anything. Anything at all. That’s not how “by definition” works. You don’t disprove a definition by finding a counterexample. And you don’t get to use the words “by definition” in an argument unless there’s a commonly agreed-upon definition. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/178 "2018-04-08T15:51:16Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > huh, I thought that was Canada’s Bible belt. It is, but compared to the Evil Belt in the US, Canada’s is more of a Bible Twine. Much thinner, much looser, and with much less overall influence (or influence on the overalls, to continue with belts :)). But (also like twine) not pretty when you take a closer look, and nasty to get tangled up in. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/179 "2018-04-08T15:57:12Z")
Still, the point about religion having no predictive value is a tough one, isn’t it. It would be a nice point to be able to avoid, wouldn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/180 "2018-04-08T16:40:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That’s not how “by definition” works. You don’t disprove a definition by finding a counterexample. Religion makes no predictions. Science does. You can dispute that, but in order to do so, you would have to use religion to make a prediction. “By definition” means “it is defined by”. > [@](#): > > And you don’t get to use the words “by definition” in an argument unless there’s a commonly agreed-upon definition. If something is defined by a characteristic, then I most certainly can. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895/181 "2018-04-08T19:13:12Z")
Sorry, somehow I missed this earlier. > [@Voyager](#): > > It could be a preacher preaching or just what they have absorbed in their communities. People tend to take up the religion of their parents. It is not like each person, at 13 or 18, does a survey of world religions and takes one up based on what they have discovered. > My rabbi didn’t have to tell me to reject Jesus. In my community, a majority of us did. Though I think being brought up to reject the majority religion in the US made it easier for me to reject all of them. Which happened when I started to investigate outside the confines of religious education and popular culture. This all seems fair. > [@](#): > > If dissatisfaction is analysis, then angst is deep self examination. It might lead to analysis, or it might lead to jumping on the nearest religious bandwagon. It doesn’t need to “lead” to analysis, though it might; it’s already the result of it. Dissatisfaction would not exist without analysis; it makes no sense to say that any kind of reaction isn’t analysis of some kind. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that angst was necessarily deep, but certainly i’d call it self examination, and it could be deep. > [@](#): > > Some Christians might jump to another variety, or even become Mormon, and some might jump into woo. Or some like Martin Gardner might become deists who seem to get the benefits of some spirituality without having to put their brains in idle. That seems to work for people who feel there must be a reason for all this. Exactly, though I still disagree with you on the putting brains in idle bit, which I think you’re using too liberally. This is why I object in part to the whole “Atheists just lack belief in on religion more” idea. Losing your faith doesn’t mean losing every aspect of whatever notion of spirituality you may have, and so instead there’s the possibility of a more qualified lack of belief. It’s superseded by the faith believed in, not nonexistant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-religious-people-try-to-prove-god-exists/811895.md?page=10)