Why do religious people try to prove God exists?

“Truth” is a subjective feeling, before it ever was a philosophical principle.

The philosophical notion was built up around the internal feeling. The personal intuition that people have that a certain statement is either “correct” or “incorrect” came first, and in our minds still comes first today. All the philosophical wrangling in history came about because of our ever-conflicting personal intuitions about what things might be true or not. Only when intuitions about truth conflict do we reach for logical argument.

But logical argument remains psychologically secondary. The feeling of truth comes first.

This is easier to see with vivid examples. We can come up with a crazy hypothetical, and our minds will IMMEDIATELY render a verdict about whether that idea is true or not, far before any deeper mental struggle to offer up post hoc “reasons” (rationalizations) why the determination was made. Example: Was the universe created last Thursday? Including all of our memories of before last Thursday, which are false memories since they were also simultaneously created with the rest of the universe last Thursday?

The emotional reaction is IMMEDIATE: there’s no fuckin way that’s true. But it’s only after that initial reaction that people struggle with the reason why it’s false. A common first response to the idea is “Falsifiability!” But this is usually a dead end, as far as determining truth or falsehood, because falsifiability is merely a reason why a statement is “scientific” or not (according to a particular definition of “science”). But potentially, a statement can be both non-scientific but still true. The actual sophisticated answer is, of course, the razor. But then the question becomes: how do we actually define “simplicity”? Simplicity itself can be defined logically (mathematically), but it can also be defined intuitively (psychologically): an idea is to be preferred, as a simpler explanation that fits the available facts, if it is intuitively easier to grasp.

This intuitive version of the razor will rule out Last Thursday as the beginning of our universe. Waaaaay too complex and unintuitive. But it might also rule in some notion of “god”, for people who perceive the notion of god – however ill-defined – as psychologically elegant and “simple”.

And this finally explains the puzzle.

People don’t accept “science” as true because they’re intimately familiar with the procedures and philosophy of science. No. Even many scientists are extremely hazy on the epistemological principles on which mathematical statistics is built. People run regressions only because they need to run regressions to get published. The vast majority of people who run regressions do not understand the philosophical principles of what they are doing. Statistics isn’t at core math. It’s at core epistemology, dressed up in mathematical clothing so it can be run on a machine.

People who say “I have faith” are essentially saying “I am intellectually sophisticated enough to realize that the means by which I determine something to be true are internal to me – the notion of Truth as an internal feeling – while simultaneously realizing that this does not work for scientific purposes as human history has shown.” I used to roll my eyes at that sort of “I have faith” statement, but that’s actually an extremely deep thought when you get down to it. It’s evidence of a deep internal struggle between competing notions of epistemology. Even if the struggle isn’t happening on an explicit level, it still exists. That’s worth something.

Frankly, most people can’t manage that. Most religious people, too. They go with “Truth” as an internal feeling, without wanting to admit that to themselves. They go by “science” as something “true”, too, but also purely by feeling because they recognize that “science” has attained deep significance and social status in our society because of its past successes. “Science is true” can be a matter of pure human intuition, a matter of purely illogical human feeling, without any knowledge whatever of logical reasoning or the history of science. Just more feeling out what’s true. And their primitive feelings iron out all of those differences: what they feel to be true must obviously also be “scientifically” demonstrated to be true. After all, if “science” is actually true, it can’t go against their true internal feelings, can it? Therefore “science” must necessarily back up what they already feel to be true. Therefore: we can “prove the Bible”.

And so their version of science becomes a cargo cult.

They ape the superficial exterior, because they believe (by feeling! by intuition!) that they are faithfully following the Ritual of Scientific Truth. There’s no contradiction in their minds because “Truth” for them has always been, and will continue to be, nothing but a psychological feeling that they experience when they encounter certain statements. They don’t perceive a difference between “faith” and “science” because they don’t even know what the principles of science are.

It’s worth remembering that some of the highest principles of epistemology were only properly formalized as late as the 20th century. In a very real sense, these ideas are babies. They’re not easy, either, and so for many people, the notion of “truth” remains fairly primitive. When the notion of “truth” doesn’t get past the feeling stage – which, let’s be frank, is the case for most human beings – then people believing they can “prove the Bible” is exactly the sort of thing that will just naturally and inevitably happen. One source of truth is not going to contradict another source of truth. This is also, historically, why so many medieval scholastics earnestly wanted to “prove” the existence of god with their personal logical system. They weren’t trying to build up evidence for god with this logical “proof”. God was already established. They were trying to build up evidence for their personal logical system by showing that their system had successfully proven something that everybody already knew was true.

Historian Ada Palmer makes this point, which was a jump start for me on much of the rest of these thoughts. And in fact, Palmer goes on to point out the idea of knowing God only by faith and not from any sort of logical proof is itself sort of a new idea. Faith-based religion is new. It is a response to the epistemological problems with religion that the scientific enterprise has dug up over the centuries. The more classical response was always: “There are no problems here! Every method of discovering Truth will back up every other method!” And this classical response is essentially what the prove-the-Bible folks are trying to preserve. They believe – they feel to be true – that all methods will back each other up. And that belief strongly mimics the medieval way of thinking about things. (Although it’s worth noting that real medieval theologians were far too smart to believe that everything in the Bible was to be taken literally.) Christian Fundamentalism is very modern, very 19th century, very post-Darwin, very ignorant.

Like Christian Fundamentalism, faith-based belief is a response to scientific advance. But it’s the more sophisticated response, because it acknowledges – at least implicitly – the epistemological tension that science has uncovered. The prove-the-Bible folks simply aren’t on that level. They’re still operating on a nearly pure “the truth is what I feel” level (no matter how much they might deny that). If the Bible is true (and it is! they know it!) then that truth can be proven by multiple methods. Including by “science”.

The reason is because they feel they received proof by God, yet what they received is knowing God. Common mistake, please forgive them, God would.

It makes absolute sense to doubt things that you can prove didn’t happen, so you can’t exactly hold that against them.

Speculating about esoteric sources for manna seems pretty out there, though. Sounds almost like fanboyism - sort of like speculating as to why kryptonite hurts Superman. The story works the same whether or not you have an explanation for it, but having an explanation is cool. And useful for appealing to the critical.

Attempting to prove the existence of god/gods scientifically is relatively new sauce, however trying to prove the existence of god/gods philosophically is old sauce. See Thomas Aquinas and, in rebuttal* Immanual Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason. Faith is good, but even in the New Testament, Paul or Peter claimed evidence existed in Creation :slight_smile:

*Before I am quite properly corrected, I did try reading Kant’s Critique and failed, coining the phrase, “I can’t I. Kant.”

Similarly for all other ancient religious traditions, AFAIK. Trying to prove the existence of deities empirically or logically is not a recent development. If you are trying to persuade somebody who doesn’t already share your belief systems, you need to start from some epistemological common ground.

I was hoping some one with your name would have said something like “proof denies faith and without faith God is nothing. But the babelfish proves god exists, therefore he doesn’t.”

Possibly because they don’t share your definition of “faith”? It’s a definition commonly offered in this context, by those critiquing religious faith, but that very fact should suggest a degree of critical scrutiny of the definition.

The Oxford English Dictionary offers a number of definitions of “faith”; “belief without evidence” isn’t any of them.

It seems to me that if you’re going to critique the faith of religious believers you have to start by asking the believers to explain their faith, rather than atheistsplaining it for them, and then critiquing the straw man you have created.

Welcome to the Straight Dope. Pease familiarize yourself with the rules of the board and of the forums in particular. We encourage healthy and vigorous debate but require that posters remain civil.

[/moderating]

Must be a different Oxford English dictionary. The one I’m looking at says:

Unless you are trying to nitpick ‘belief wihthout evidence’ vs ‘belief without proof’, I gave a pretty standard definition for faith in this context. The other definition sometimes equates faith with trust, as in ‘I have faith that my mom will help out if needed’, but that’s colloquial because trust usually implies some underlying justification.

And I wasn’t ‘athiestSplaining’ - not that there’s anything wrong with that. I’m very tired of this idea that arguments can be shut down iust because they didn’t come from a member of a preferred group. Screw that.

But if you must know, I grew up in a devout community of Mennonite Christians, and was a true believer myself in my childhood. I’ve maintained close connections to many of them, and have nothing at all bad to say about any of them. My grandparents were devout Christians, and two of the best people I’ve known. So I’m not coming from a place of malice here.

See, the effect science had on me when I started learning about it was to essentially drive a wedge between my faith and my rationality. It didn’t take long for me to stop believing, and I was agnostic by the time I was 12 years old. But I still very much remember what it was like to truly believe. Part of the reason for my question was to try to understand that mindset and ability to straddle both worlds, because I couldn’t do it.

Does it still sound like a straw man argument to you?

You may be surprised (and maybe horrified) to find out that this is part of the actual thesis of Immanuel Velikovsky’s “Worlds in Collision”, which was a hugely popular book for a time. I still remember Carl Sagan’s awesome takedown of that claptrap.

(clipped for brevity)

That was an outstanding response with lots to chew on. Thanks very much. I’ll follow your link and read more before commenting.

Bolding mine.

(cough) abortion (cough) LGBTQ rights (cough) marijuana legalization (cough) every church I’ve spent a significant enough amount of time in to get to know the people somewhat, and there have been a number of them…

Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind…

That would have suited my cynical atheism far more than the post I wrote.

Can I get a redo?

sure - come back in 3 days.

Aside from everything else, this is wrong. The current mainstream view is that Exodus never happened, and is simply a founding myth like many others.

In summary:

So by all means continue to post about how you can prove the Bible, subject to moderator notes on your tone, of course. But don’t try to think you can slip stuff by us. You’re nowhere near that original.

Your lack of capitals and use of “a” instead of “an” before a noun that begins with a vowel makes you appear less intelligent and therefore less persuasive. Proofread carefully.

Also, the bottom of the sea would be too mucky to be able to walk across without getting stuck.

Yes. The obvious false historical details are fatal to the biblical inerrancy claim, so anyone wishing to claim inerrancy finds ways to obfuscate or deny or ignore facts.

Anyone claiming that the bible is important but flawed, doesn’t have that problem.

Something that bears mentioning here is that a lot of the stories in the Old Testament was never meant to be taken literally. They were meant to be discussed and debated so man could better know God’s will, or commandments, or grand design, or whatever. To the ancient Hebrews it was irrelevant whether the events described actually took place or not. What was important was the message, the truth, that God had given to the prophet.

The New Testament, on the other hand, is about God coming to Earth, doing a bunch of miracles, laying down the real truth, and getting killed.* That stuff can all be taken literally because, come on, it’s the big man himself, he can do anything, and you weren’t there, were you?

Most of the New Testament miracles were not the sort of thing that would leave archaeological evidence and Christians can believe that they really happened without being proven wrong. Since the Old and New Testaments are bundled together in one convenient volume, it’s not surprising that some Christians would think, “If one is true, so must be the other.” From there it’s not much of a leap to go searching for evidence.
*Yes, I know it’s a bit more complicated than that, read the book if you want the details.

“To err is human, to forgive is divine,” but I’m an atheist, so fuck 'em.

Just kidding; I with 'em all the happiness in the world (even if they’re wrong).

That seems to still be a Jewish thing. Knew a guy who, as of ten years ago, had been in a Tanakh discussion group for thirty years, starting at Genesis. When I knew him they had worked their way up to Judges, sometimes spending a whole meeting debating one word. Don’t see much of that in Christian Bible study classes at the parish level, but my experience is limited.

I dispute premise. I do agree that one of the aspects of modern religion is faith instead of proof, but if you read your Bible you will see that the patriarchs and Noah and Abraham had ample proof of God’s existence, and did not have to rely on faith at all. Of course those stories aren’t true, but they are evidence that the God of Western religions does not want us to believe with faith alone.
Not to mention that Jesus supposedly did miracles and supposedly provided all sorts of evidence of his divinity.
In the early 19th century much science was done by religious people, partially because in England if you got a good church you got a good income without doing much but significantly because these people thought that as they learned more about the world through science, what they learned would support the Bible. Not literally, perhaps, but to a great extent. That didn’t turn out so well, and led to the rejection of science by many, especially after the Origin was published.
Faith is an excellent recourse for those who know enough to understand and accept the science. For the others, there is Creationism and the false history of our friend perryb. Or, for the Dope at least, deism which lets you believe in god while accepting science and not going overboard on the faith.
If you remember Laugh In from many years ago they had a continuing sketch where all of Martin’s kids looked just like neighbor Rowan. Dick Martin’s character had faith!