# Why Do Roofers Do This?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [October 22, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464 "2011-10-22T18:41:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/21 "2011-10-23T04:50:10Z")
> [@gaffa](#):
>
> In situations like that, I have to wonder - is it
>
> [ol]
> [li]The individuals being stupid?[/li][li]The boss not giving a shit?[/li][li]The boss insisting on a level of productivity that causes workers to skip vital steps?[/li][/ol]
> A friend of mine nearly lost his family company when an employee disabled the safety guards on a metal stamping machine to reach in and grab the finished piece. He lost two fingers when the machine malfunctioned and double-stamped. He re-installed the guard, hired an OSHA compliance firm to come in and lecture people, and paid the Workman’s Comp.
>
> Then his own brother did the same thing and lost the SAME TWO FINGERS three months later! He had to close down the entire machine shop department, and lost all that business. In both cases, it was reason #1.
Well my daughter’s father did it all the time because he couldn’t afford a harness and none of the people who hired illegal immigrants cared whether they fell off a roof. He did fall and (luckily only) damaged his shoulder, and the guy who hired him told him he’d report him to ICE if he tried to sue. That’s the standard response and many are so afraid of ICE or know they won’t get any justice they don’t do a thing about it.
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### Author:  [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/22 "2011-10-23T16:06:00Z")
Back in April we had some hailstorms that destroyed a lot of roofs. Since then I’ve seen every house in my neighborhood get a new roof, including mine. I don’t recall any of the crews having any kind of safety devices.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/23 "2011-10-23T16:32:30Z")
Some roofers will tell you that you want to spend as little time as possible on a roof and safety devices just slow you down. It’s hot and dirty work, but I haven’t met a roofer who hasn’t had at least one fall. Sadly, one fall is all a lot of them get.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/24 "2011-10-23T16:54:11Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> I heard from someone that worked for a railroad company many many many years ago that they were told if someone is on the tracks and they won’t be able to stop on time to not even attempt to slow down\*. They found it’s cheaper to payout a one time settlement then a lifetime of disability.
> \*In other words, if you can’t stop, don’t slow down and run the risk of hitting a stalled car at 7 mph and maiming the person.
That sounds like a shaggy dog story, for if word got out of that policy, the railroad company would be dog meat in a lot of litigation.
I was in the front car of a train that hit a kid on a bicycle, the train tried to stop before hitting him.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/25 "2011-10-23T16:58:54Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Most of the roofers I knew back in the day were getting paid cash off the books and/or were being pushed to do the job as quickly and cheaply as possible. Hell, most of them were druggies too.
Word.
From what I’ve come across in construction law in Ontario (where we have a strong occupational safety regime), roofers tend to be dumber than dog shit, and always looking for a way to game the system. That’s a bad combination when working at heights.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/26 "2011-10-23T17:45:43Z")
The roofers I saw most recently were straight from Ireland. Someone asked the foreman and he said they worked cheap and no immagration officers ever looked for white guys on a job site.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/27 "2011-10-23T18:55:08Z")
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> Word.
>
> From what I’ve come across in construction law in Ontario (where we have a strong occupational safety regime), roofers tend to be dumber than dog shit, and always looking for a way to game the system. That’s a bad combination when working at heights.
I’ll let **Dread Pirate Jimbo** speak for himself, but when I told him about this thread yesterday, that was pretty much what he said (he’s a construction safety officer).
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/28 "2011-10-23T19:36:15Z")
In my experience workers will always skip on safety measures unless they’re enforced, because everyone thinks it Won’t Happen To Them.
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/29 "2011-10-23T22:41:25Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#):
>
> Their insurer will ask them if they tie off, and they will tell the insurers “yes, of course we do.” If the customer is big enough they’ll visit occasionally and check it out, but there’s no money in sending someone out to check a 3-man roofing crew.
>
> Which is why insurance is so expensive for roofing companies. Falls from one story are more expensive in the long run than falls off very tall buildings.
I don’t nderstand..you either have a safety harness or not. If you are wearing the harness, you slip and fall-and fall maybe 5 feet. You do not have an accident.
If you are not wearing a harness, you fall off the roof-and you are dead or gravely injured.
Does insurance pay off if you are not wearing the harness?
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### Author:  [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/30 "2011-10-23T22:47:25Z")
I’m still laughing at having to wear a harness to go 5 feet up a six foot ladder. :rolleyes: I’m a safety gal, but seriously…that was stupid. The line caused more problems getting up and down than it could ever have helped should I have ‘fallen’. FFS I’m pretty sure that even if I’d fallen I still would have hit the floor; it just wasn’t high enough to warrant that.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/31 "2011-10-23T22:51:21Z")
Just a note about liability. Here in Ontario (YMMV), there is the owner of the property being worked on, and the contractor who arranges for all the permits and hires the employees and sub-contractors who do the work. If the owner directly hires the people who do the work, then the owner assumes the tasks and responsibilites of the contractor, which increases the risk taken by the owner. Although using a reputable contractor costs more, it is money well spent for unsophisticated owners.
If an owner uses a contractor who is not so reputable, the owner runs the risk of the contractor having the owner sign permits and other documents related to the project as if the owner were also the contractor, which could leave the owner on the hook.
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### Author:  [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/32 "2011-10-23T23:57:04Z")
I know someone who used to be a roofer, and did this all the time- despite being blind in one eye hence having no depth perception at all. He somehow managed to reach retirement without any bad falls.
Some guys just like pushing their luck.
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/33 "2011-10-24T00:58:18Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> I don’t nderstand..you either have a safety harness or not. If you are wearing the harness, you slip and fall-and fall maybe 5 feet. You do not have an accident.
> If you are not wearing a harness, you fall off the roof-and you are dead or gravely injured.
> Does insurance pay off if you are not wearing the harness?
I’m sure it pays out and probably raises their rates. But it’s probably still cheaper then buying, maintaining and training all the employees on the proper use of safety equipment that slows them down. Also, if the turnover is fast, that means lots of training and if they roofers are experienced, they’ll just go somewhere else that doesn’t require them to use safety equipment.
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### Author:  [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/34 "2011-10-24T00:59:59Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> I don’t nderstand..you either have a safety harness or not. If you are wearing the harness, you slip and fall-and fall maybe 5 feet. You do not have an accident.
> If you are not wearing a harness, you fall off the roof-and you are dead or gravely injured.
> Does insurance pay off if you are not wearing the harness?
I’m not following the part you don’t understand, but yes, workers compensation in the US pays off if you aren’t wearing a harness. And in NY it’s a little more complicated; if you fall from a height, you can waive the WC and sue.
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### Author:  [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/35 "2011-10-24T01:07:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> I mean, doesn’t their insurance have any say in this?
> I just saw two guys working on at least a 60 degree pitched roof-both without safety harnesses.
> In my younger days, I did some roof work-but always with a safety harness and a 1" diameter line to a tie point.
> Looks awful dangerous to me.
Superman complex.
I saw the same thing camping this summer. Yahoos in canoes with no life jackets on.
The worst was a canoe with a young child and parent, the kid was wearing one but the parent wasn’t.
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### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/36 "2011-10-24T01:19:57Z")
> [@Ibanez](#):
>
> Superman complex.
>
> I saw the same thing camping this summer. Yahoos in canoes with no life jackets on.
> The worst was a canoe with a young child and parent, the kid was wearing one but the parent wasn’t.
To this day I always remember something my mom told me when I was younger and didn’t want to wear a life jacket on my Grandpa’s motorboat.
“But mom, I’m a strong swimmer, I can get back to the dock no matter how far out we are”
“Yeah, but if you hit your head when you fall out of the boat, you won’t be able to swim at all”
And that’s the thing people always seem to forget…sure, you’re a strong swimmer, maybe you _can_ swim for 500 yards without a problem, but the question is, why did you end up in the water in the first place? Did the boat overturn? Did you trip and hit your head and go over the side? Were you drinking or rough housing? Too many unknowns. Also, a capsized canoe isn’t all that violent of an event, but trying to flip it back over in 8 feet of water with a friend will eat up a lot of your energy…I hope you have enough left to tread water if you can’t do it on your own.
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### Author:  [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/37 "2011-10-24T01:37:58Z")
I second that. One of our favorite trips is to camp and go tubing down the Kern River. ALL of us wear life jackets. Yes, it’s bulky, and it’s kind of uncomfortable, but a couple hundred people have died in that water since 1968, and it’s almost always because the dumb bastard wasn’t wearing a life jacket.
I have hit my melon once when a rapid got me right by a rock and I flipped. It didn’t knock me out, but I saw white for a few seconds. My life jacket helped me get oriented quickly, and I continued on with nothing but a bruise.
No matter how hard we try to evolve, human beings STILL cannot breathe water!
On edit: Wow, hijack! Carry on. Nothing to see here.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/38 "2011-10-24T01:44:41Z")
In white water, also wear a helmet. If you can’t get your hands on a paddling helmet, then use a hockey helmet but make sure the chin strap will not let go easily.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/39 "2011-10-24T01:50:42Z")
…
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-roofers-do-this/600464/40 "2011-10-24T02:16:38Z")
> [@Ibanez](#):
>
> Yahoos in canoes
That’s a Dr Seuss book.
Where I am right now I frequently see guys monkeying around on rickety scaffolding hundreds of feet up with no safety equipment, guys arc welding with no safety glass or just a pair of $3 sunglasses on, and people smashing the ground for hours with pneumatic drills with no ear protection.
In some Asian countries I’ve been in, taxi drivers have disabled the safety belts, and I once got told off by a cabbie for putting mine on - he considered it an insult to his driving (which sucked).
Machismo + peer pressure + convenience + stupidity.
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