I never had to use a push reel mower, but as a kid I used a non-self-propelled mower quite a lot. Of course I bitched and moaned about not having a self-propelled model, especially given our hilly backyard, but it wasn’t until I was almost moved out to college and the old mower gave up the ghost that they upgraded.
And you know what? I liked the old mower better. The new one didn’t take any less time–in fact, it took a bit longer, because it always went at the same speed. It was definitely easier, but on the other hand a little extra exercise is a very good thing. And the old mower kept my interest by always being on the verge of sputtering out.
Anyway, as I said, I may be in the minority here (though i doubt I’m unique).
BTW, I’m also a “stairs elitist”–I turn my nose at any healthy adult that takes the elevator for less than 5 stories or so when stairs are available.
That’s fine, but do you get that other people prefer to think about something interesting while they mow the lawn (more interesting to them than whether it’s going to quit), or prefer to get exercise at home or the gym rather than pumping up 5 flights in work clothes? It’s fine for you to have a preference, but you seem to have trouble with the idea that others have different ones. Why turn up your nose at someone for preferring a different way?
Making something that I already find stupid and boring more difficult does not make me enjoy it more. It just raises it from “mild inconvenience” to “unnecessary pain in the ass.”
I find it difficult in general to understand how people can find anything at all completely uninteresting.
Relative interest I get–everyone has different preferences. But truly zero interest? I’m not sure there’s a subject anywhere that I have zero interest in.
None of that stuff is in any way dangerous unless taken to an extreme.
I already made the practical case many posts ago. It is no skin off my back if these points happen to be less important than other factors for some people, and that therefore autos are the best choice for them.
IMO, the topic has moved on to a question of whether, for a generally boring activity, you’re better off minimizing how much mental share you give that activity vs. making an effort to make the activity more interesting and engaging.
For the most part, I prefer the latter approach, and this applies to more than just manual transmissions. Obviously, people’s preferences differ, but the difference in attitude seems to go deeper than that. It may be a more general personality trait.
Ooooh, hold on a minute, you didn’t say anything about physical activity in that post I quoted, didn’t realise that was the actual issue! You talked about the sequence as if paying attention to what you’re doing with the gears was the issue. Sorry.
If you don’t like moving your feet and stuff, then I guess that’s that. I would never claim it’s not more physical effort - but physical effort isn’t something that would occur to me. I like to run, and I walk everywhere that would take 15/20 minutes or less to drive to anyway.
I never realised people actually have a problem with moving their arms and legs whilst driving. :eek:
Then this has nothing to do with driving at all, but is really a discussion about someone who either is incapable of or is unwilling to see things from other people’s point of view.
How long is your day? How much time do you have to devote interest to every damn thing? I don’t get enough time to give attention to the things I really am interested in. I have zero interest in giving additional time to what to me is the minutia of auto mechanics.
Let’s look at it again:
Driving while taking “those turns a little bit faster” and flooring it “when hitting the onramp onto the highway” are inherently more dangerous than not doing them.
Unless you admit this obvious truism, it’s difficult to take you seriously at all. Especially since you are advocating spending the time and effort to learn how to do them safely.
You’re introducing an increased risk to driving where it otherwise would be lower and then saying that we should all have interest in training ourselves to the point that we can mitigate some of that increased risk.
Remember when I mentioned my wife a few pages back – the one who likes driving a stick because it gives her more “control” (her word)? She has one artifical knee, shot cartilege in the other and arthritis in both her elbows.
So, yeah, there are people who’d prefer to minimize unnecessary movement while driving. Even people who might otherwise prefer to drive a stick.
Because we like to hold our cellphone in one hand and a cig in the other with our bong between our legs Jack Daniels in the cupholder and we got to have our nose free to change the channel on the radio when the commercial comes on :smack: . Jeeze, don’t you realize we’ve got to keep the highway death toll up, we got a reputation to uphold .
My post, was in response to a poster saying that it’s not more “cumbersome” than an automatic, but I didn’t specifically say anything about “cumbersome” or physical activity in my post. I just listed the sequence of events that don’t disappear regardless of how proficient one is with shifting.
The ability to see things from another’s point of view is something I’ve never been accused of :).
We’re talking past each other here. Of course I don’t have the time to devote my interest to every possible thing. As I said: relative interest I get, which is why given the choice I will read an article about astronomy over one about some bug in the Amazon. But if I’m waiting at the doctor’s office and the only magazine is a 14-year-old National Geographic special about bugs in the Amazon, I’m going to read it and probably find it interesting.
But perhaps I see some of the confusion here: you’re talking about devoting additional time to these things. But for the most part, the things I’m talking about (certainly not a stick shift, aside from a trivial amount of “training”) don’t require significant additional time. They aren’t even a real distraction from NPR or whatever, since they occupy different parts of your brain.
Ridiculous. Under typical conditions, your car has a large safety margin. There’s a good chance, depending on your car, that you couldn’t break traction on launch if you tried.
No, you misunderstood. The things I cited as ways to increase the enjoyment of driving were not dependent on each other. I don’t advocate driving on the edge of traction under any conditions, but on dry asphalt most cars are nowhere near that limit.
Driven correctly, manuals increase control under all conditions, but this should only come into play when you’re already closer to the control limit than usual–inclement weather and so on. I certainly don’t advise “spending” the extra control on speed here; I’ll take the enhanced safety margin instead.
We’re talking a about a country in which tens of millions of people take tens of millions of cars on the road every day. To what extent are you going to adhere to the theoretical outcomes of perfect operation of a car? Can you see that by eliminating unnecessary options, we are, in the bigger picture, increasing safety outcomes?
This has very little meaning at all to me. Again, all I see is that you are advocating that the entire world be enthusiastic in learning an otherwise unnecessary skill for extremely arcane and unlikely benefits in outcomes.
My car is a modern car (2001–kind of old, but I think it still falls within “modern”) and it can be started by popping the clutch. There’s another advantage I’d forgotten, until somebody mentioned it. We had a habit, a couple of years ago, of somebody not quite shutting the door. I could roll the car out of the garage, pop the clutch, and it would be running before I got to the street.
I know it’s possible to start a manual by giving it a push but I think you have to get it going a hell of a lot faster, if that even still works, and it may not.
I know I posted early on in this thread giving some the impression I was a manual elitist…and I still am.
Looking at accident and death rates comparing the USA with Europe here, it seems that death rates due to traffic fatalities in the USA are pretty damn high, despite our high-tech, slush-box loving, first-world roadways, etc and blah blah…according to that, we utterly suck as a nation of drivers. Bulgaria, the Slovak republic, Azerbeijan and a shitload of other countries do better than the USA in terms of vehicle deaths per thousand.
Incidentally, this has been my experience when driving in Mexico, the middle east, Europe and Costa Rica. Overall, drivers in the USA are really sloppy and really bad. Last time I drove down into Mexico, the insurance agent told me that Mexico-side claims were way, way lower than USA-side claims. Mexican insurance is really cheap.
I was looking for more recent emprical evidence one way or another and this was the best I could do. Please feel free to rebut or update. My belief is that the USa, being a car-dependent country, has many residents who regard automobiles as boring appliances and don’t give much thought to the social or community aspect of driving a car: they don’t give a shit about anyone else as long as they get to wherever they want to go.
You lacksadaisical, bad, horrible, “it’s just an appliance” drivers - it’s your sort that crippled my mother. It’s your sort that make my insurance go up. It’s your sort that makes my commute a nightmare.
No. It’s been established that manuals continue to be popular in Europe while being almost nonexistent in the US. However, US lags behind in automotive safety:
The sizable traffic safety lead enjoyed by the USA since the 1960s had narrowed significantly by 2002, with the US improvement percentages lagging in 16th place behind those of Australia, Austria, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Great Britain, Iceland, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland in terms of deaths per thousand vehicles, while in terms of deaths per 100 million vehicle miles travelled, the USA had dropped from first place to tenth place.[30]
Now, obviously there are a zillion other factors at play here. The point is just that you can’t conclude from the data that automatics lead to better safety outcomes. At least, not unless you can provide more detailed data.
Driving in hard rain, or on windy roads, or on ice is arcane? Sure, it’s not the typical case for most daily commutes, but it’s also not so uncommon to be “arcane”.
You’ve probably got to take levels of car ownership into account, though, and that’s obviously going to be way higher in the USA than in Azerbaijan. That said, there’s no way that there are three times as many cars per person in the USA than there are in the Netherlands or Sweden.
[edit] and actually a similar point is made in the comments below the table in the link
That’s exactly why I put out the call to others to update or refute.
As it stands, appliance drivers in the USA are terrible and cost everyone else money.
It seems to depend which measure one uses. If we look at the “VMT/VKmT Rate” column in your link (vehicle deaths per x miles/km travelled, it seems), the figure for the US is comparable to those for Western Europe, and far better than Slovakia. But the comments below discuss whether VMT is really that much better a measure.
.