Perhaps it wasn’t clear, but I don’t view “lazy” as a purely negative epithet. Lazy can mean someone who avoids work at all costs, but lazy can also mean someone who works so efficiently that they can achieve the same productivity as another with much less effort. The latter is commendable; the former, not so much. Or even better: someone willing to spend a small upfront effort to save a large amount of effort later on.
So, not wanting to operate a manual clutch is lazy. But in my view, it’s only an actual negative if you are giving up actual function to achieve that. A dual-clutch transmission is in some ways more featured than manual clutch system, so while losing the clutch is a bit lazy, it’s hardly a negative since no function is lost.
Using a slushbox because manual clutch is too much effort is lazy in a negative sense, IMHO, because outside of a few atypical situations, they are demonstrably less capable than a manual.
If these capabilities were truly of zero importance to an individual, then of course losing them would not be a real loss at all. I just don’t buy the argument that this number is zero instead of a very low number.
YMMV, certainly. That attitude is utterly foreign to me. Boring things are boring because they are unengaging. Tuning out only makes these things more boring. Engaging them has at least a chance at making them more interesting.
Once again, you’re not quite understanding, at least in my case. I don’t say driving isn’t enjoyable because it’s boring. Just the opposite. I’ve already got too much to pay attention to just to drive safely and not get into an accident. I don’t need any more distractions. I agree with the poster above who said that driving is stressful.
If I would have had my choice, I’d have never learned how to drive at all. Unfortunately, I do have to drive to live in this modern world.
If driving is really that stressful for you, you should really take some training courses. The antidote to stress is confidence, and the route to confidence is skill. Increase your skill, and you will be less stressed and increase the safety of yourself and those around you.
Stick shifts are not a distraction when you understand them; if anything, the opposite is true, because they remove one more source of unpredictability.
I feel like there is some confusion here, perhaps exacerbated by comments from the manualphiles–that shifting is an activity that requires a great deal of attention. And perhaps some of you think that because we say that it is fun and engaging. But it is like riding a bike; once you learn it, the basic mechanics are totally automatic, and you can apply your focus to whatever is most useful or interesting at the moment.
BTW, do you actually regret learning to drive? There are many things which I find less interesting or useful than some other things, but there’s absolutely nothing that I actually wish I hadn’t learned.
Also, for what it’s worth, I wouldn’t recommend that you use a manual at this point. I think it would have helped had you learned on a manual, even if you later switched to automatic, but it’s too late for that now. Instead, like I said, I think you should take some training courses. I don’t mean the same high-school driver’s ed courses; I mean courses oriented towards adults and more advanced techniques. You might even consider a racing or police driving school.
Will driving courses increase the speed of my reflexes, or improve my ability to rapidly interpret a cluttered visual field, or improve my depth perception and general sensory integration? Because in my case, THOSE are the things which make driving stressful for me, not a lack of confidence.
Not everyone is the same, Dr. Strangelove. Some people are always going to find driving more difficult than others, no matter how many driving courses they take.
Could I learn to drive a manual transmission? Sure. But why would I want to make a task that’s already difficult for me even harder? Perhaps suranyi feels the same way.
Yes, I believe training could improve most of those things. Well, probably not depth perception, but a course could improve your ability to deal with poor depth perception.
Training can certainly improve reflexes, and allow you to better navigate visual clutter. These are skills which some people may have a natural affinity for, but everyone must learn.
If you do not trust your senses, then I would say you lack confidence. Poor depth perception may impair your ability to, for example, judge when it is safe to make an unprotected left turn. How far away is that car heading towards me? Training might tell you to look at landmarks instead. Eventually these things become automatic.
To be honest, I don’t know if these training courses exist–which is why I mentioned racing and police courses. These would at least give a person greater confidence and appreciation of the abilities of a car, and hence better judgment of safe maneuvers. To some extent, this can make up for sensory deficits. For instance, the data shows that most people underbrake in a rear-ending situation. Braking at the proper level would make up for a deficit in reaction time.
Oh, come on, Dr. Strangelove. I love stick and all the vehicles I have purchased have been sticks, but, seriously. For the average driver, there really is no advantage. It’s a disadvantage, if anything. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single instance in which I was thankful I had a manual. None. There is no road situation I would navigated better because I was driving a manual vs a slushbox. Sure, for me it’s more fun in most cases, which is why I drive stick, but I can understand why people wouldn’t want to. There is no good reason to, in ordinary driving conditions. None. Maybe shifting from 5->3 on your manual tranny to pass a car affords you a sense of control you wouldn’t quite get by stomping down on the throttle in an automatic, but I’ve never experienced a situation where that nuance was important. To be honest, I’d prefer for more people to drive automatics, unless they have the interest to drive a manual gearbox. One less complicating factor in the driving experience.
I agree with you both. Driving a stick is not fun. Driving usually is not fun: it’s necessary, and I don’t see any compelling reason to complicate the process. Over the life of the car, it’s more than worth the $1000-1500 price difference to make driving a less irritating process, so I can’t ever see myself choosing a standard.
One thing I don’t understand about the whole “standard transmissions are rare in the US” idea: if they’re so rare, why does every single newspaper ad for new cars give the price for a standard transmission rather than automatics? Or is that just here? I know a ton of people who drive standards and I’ve heard they’re more common in the northeast but I can’t prove it by google…
It’s possible my sense of optimism is misplaced. I would certainly like to think that the pilot of 900 kilojoules worth of automobile would care deeply about the way their vehicle behaves, but at the moment the evidence is against me.
Nevertheless, I still see no reason to believe that Americans are stupider or less capable than Europeans. Perhaps it is too late for the majority of driving adults, though, and perhaps this means it is too late for their children.
I love driving my stick shift Jetta and I live in LA. And I am a woman. Gives me something to do when the 101 is stop and go. I have also noticed that I cannot use my cell phone without a hands free device (in compliance with state law) like I could when I was driving an automatic. Taking an informal poll of the people I work with, the only other one who knew how to drive stick did not grow up in SoCal. I grew up in Washington state in a farming community where most people knew how to drive stick because that is what the tractors are.
This whole argument is like listening to audiophiles debate the merits of digital vs. analog and CD vs. vinyl.
Audiophile 1 argues that no digital source, no matter how good, can reproduce the wave form of analog, that vinyl has a warmth that enhances the sound, blah, blah, blah.
Audiphile 2 argues that analog recording adds its own imperfections to the sound, that vinyl scrathes and warps, that mechanical turntables are more prone to going off-speed, stylii need replacing and so on and so on.
Meanwhile, 98.8 percent of those who are exposed to these arguments don’t care about “the music listening experience” – they just want to listen to music!
Anecdote time. My mother can’t drive a manual. She tried learning, but for whatever reason did not adapt. My brother and I can - learned from father - but my sister cannot. She had enough difficulties with driving automatics and just wasn’t interested.
I knew a guy in college, he was an ambulance driver. He said he didn’t know how to use the clutch. The ambulances were supposedly manual transmissions, which he said he could shift by knowing the rpms. I never tried that.
The specific statement you quoted was:
[QUOTE=MacTech]
Make that TWO people here, no clutch pedal = not a true manual, I’ve driven a DSG equipped VW Jetta, the DSG did shift well, but any transmission you can put into “D” and let the transmission shift for you is not a real manual transmission
[/QUOTE]
The comment about “wedded to the idea of a manual clutch” was started by Dr. Strangelove, which was about preference, but the response by Throatwarbler Mangrove was all about definitions of what makes a manual a manual.
TM was making the point about definitions, DS replied “That is one”, and MacTech chimed in as a second person who defines manual transmissions as having a manual clutch.
But that said, there is plenty of discussion in this thread on preferences, so your comment wasn’t completely out of place, I just didn’t see how it addressed the comment that MacTech made that you quoted.
Yes. The labels are holdovers from prior days when there were only two options. Makes it hard to communicate when the terminology doesn’t differentiate the way the hardware does.
Well, first I have to get access to one. Presumably I could go to a car dealership of some sort and test drive one, but that would require me knowing which cars have them, etc. And then presuming I liked it and wanted one, I’d lose the money to buy one. Which in this current economic environment where I’m crossing my fingers with respect to still being employed in 6 months, I’m not ready to commit to a major payment I can avoid. I have a working car that I own. I’d rather not add a car payment at this time.
Which is what the automatic drivers have been saying, and manual enthusiasts keep denying.
:smack: (There’s a reason I’m a ME and not an EE.)
I plowed through this 6-page zombie with interest, since I am in the process of getting my driver’s license (at age 34), in a country dominated by manual-transmission cars, in a medieval city with heavy, convoluted stop n’ go traffic and almost no level spot to stop one’s car at.
Having a couple of driving lessons under my belt, the manual transmission sure seems a redundant pain in the ass. Knowing beforehand little else than that the clutch is a pedal used when shifting gears, I was surprised to learn the hard way that the clutch is a central, delicate apparatus needing constant, precise footwork for the car to go the way it needs to in the tight, packed, slow city environment.
Finding just the right “bite” on the clutch when waiting for the light to turn, then fiddling with the gas to have enough oomph to get me through a crossing quickly, all the while keeping my eyes peeled for all the critical stuff going on in all directions (dozens of mostly hapless pedestrians and bicyclists as well as other motorists) gets my stress levels mighty high. If I let go of the clutch just a little too quickly, the motor stalls in a bad spot. If I don’t feed just enough gas while having just the right amount of pressure on the clutch, the car will crawl forward instead of moving swiftly within the couple of seconds of green light available. Having to use my right hand constantly to shift gears up and down adds to the “things to remember” list.
Using the clutch and shifting correctly are the only hard parts of driving for me, and really use up newbie energy that would be better spent on observing the surroundings. (I was never all that good with multi-tasking or using my feet for much else than walking to begin with.)
Interestingly, automatics are fast becoming more and more common here, as elsewhere in Europe. My driving instructor (with 40 years of professional experience driving stick shifts) tells me he’ll get an automatic for himself as soon as he retires, “as they are made for human beings”.
Me, facing the affordable used car market with 95 % manuals, and job prospects where I’ll have to use stick shifts, as well as the fact that if I learn on an automatic, I’ll have license to only operate them, as opposed to a manual shift license which leaves all doors open, I’ll just have to stick (heh) with it and get to a point where operating the manual transmission doesn’t feel like juggling a couple of dinner plates on my fingertips while pedalling a unicycle through a parade.
