Why do so many African leaders have english/western first names?

[MrDibble]

@slash2k

I’m not making any argument for the moral superiority of Europe, or being “better” at anything.

You are making an argument for Europeans being “better” at being in nation-states, and that nation-states are the opposite of tribalism - and I’m saying that’s only true because they tend to ethically cleanse those states first, so this is not an argument that nation-states are the opposite of tribalism. In fact, ethno-states like the Balkans or Poland are more tribalistic than most any African state.

The idea of a Bulgarian political entity in which most people shared a common language, religion, culture, and ethnic identity dates back probably a thousand years. Serbia as a nation-state is likewise a medieval innovation. The histories of these regions are very complicated, and they rose and fell, lost and gained independence, but they retained national identity and emerged as modern states.

Which African nations have similar national identities?

Quite a lot of them have national identities that *aren’t *tied to ethnicity but have those other things - while the precise borders are different, many modern African states have roots in medieval kingdoms. Most of those were multi-ethnic. This refutes the “tribal > national” idea quite handily - if Africans favoured tribe over state, this continuity would have dissolved with independence.

And the ARB and FLNC and Bloc Catala are/were tiny groups–I think the Bloc received something rather less than one half of one percent of the vote in the last election they contested. The Scottish Nationalist Party is somewhat larger, but the UK has 64 million people; the Yes vote in the referendum was 1.6 million, and the referendum failed.

Good thing I didn’t say these groups were majorities - just that ethnic preference over existing national lines is not a vanished concern in Western Europe. IMO, it’s actually on the rise.

The varying dialects of Italian don’t really impinge on an “Italian” national identity (there’s a north-south split in Italy, but it has more to do with economics than ethnicity).

Have you spent much time in Italy? In my very limited experience (the Veneto and Piedmont), Italians are regional first, Italian second.

And calling them “dialects” is begging the question, because they’re not - Venetian, Piedmontese, Lombard, Sicilian, etc. are not dialects, they are widely recognized as distinct native languages. It’s the government that doesn’t officially recognize them as such, and for obvious reasons.

In Sub-Saharan Africa today, residents are still more likely to think of themselves as Kikuyu or Hutu or Mongo first and Kenyan or Congolese or Rwandan second. (Do you dispute this?)

I do, in fact.
At least, while there is an awareness of ethnic groupings, in my (African resident) experience, it doesn’t trump national identity - people introduce themselves as Congolese, Zimbabwean, Mozambican, Ethiopian and identify as such in all the same ways as Europeans - support the national soccer team, hang out at the Uni Nation-X club, etc. Now, it’s possible that only highly-nationalized Africans come to South Africa to live or study, but I doubt it. My Zimbabwean colleagues at work identify as Zimbos first, Shona/Ndebele second. In fact, the Shona girl and the Ndebele girl are looking to rent a flat together right now…

Most citizens of Sweden identify first and foremost as Swedes. (Do you dispute this?)

Not for those examples - but what about Finnish Swedes? Swiss Germans, Venetians? Corsicans? Catalans? Walloons? The Welsh?

Because Europe has mostly developed as a series of nation-states with cohesive national identities

Again - a recent phenomenon mostly achieved by the kind of ethnic conflict that gets labelled “tribal” when Africans do it. But is “ethnic” or “national” in Europe. That’s kind of my point.

Hell, I’m changing my answer to that question - replace “tribe” with “nation” in all commentary on Africa, see if the primitivism persists…

, there aren’t many European countries where the political parties and political activities, and indeed many economic/educational/social activities, are organized primarily along ethnic lines.

Define “many”, please? And “primarily” is a bit of a weasel-word, isn’t it? Which African countries have “primarily” ethnic parties? Is it “many”? And certainly many economic/educational/social activities are organized on ethnic lines - especially if we toss immigrants into the mix (and why wouldn’t we?).

In Kenya, e.g., much of Daniel arap Moi’s long tenure as president came from his ability to play various ethnic groups off against each other.

Kenyan ethnic politics doesn’t make Kenya not a real nation-state anymore than Ferguson and the Southern Strategy makes the US not one.