# Why do so many Americans feel they need tools for killing people? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849 "2015-12-08T20:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/101 "2015-12-09T21:44:56Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Debate implies I would be willing to listen to the arguments of the other side. I am not. Guns are bad. We need to get rid of them. Anyone who thinks differently has flawed mental processes. Based on that, your premise seems better suited to the Pit. I’ll relocate it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/102 "2015-12-09T21:48:15Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Yes. You also seem to need a bit of extra time catching on. Thanks, reported - Well, in the time I was going to do that, it got moved to the Pit. I guess I won’t be doing that then. Such is life. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/103 "2015-12-09T21:49:53Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Do these agents of states ever decide against that when their intended targets are armed? > > Also, who cares what happened in the past? That’s over, we live in the present now and we’ll be living in the future soon enough. > > If we start reducing the number of guns out there, then at some point in the future fewer people will die unnecessarily. It won’t be possible to get there overnight, but a good start would be to get rid of the type of guns and ammo that allow a single person to keep shooting at such a high rate that they’re basically unstoppable. Guns with a small magazine that takes significant time to reload are still bad, but orders of magnitude less so, so we can worry about those at some later date. Who cares what happens in the past? You base _your_ observations and conclusions on what happened in the past. Yet you discount the very same past when the observations don’t support your conclusion. That’s disingenuous and logically inconsistent. And how are you going to take these weapons without weapons of your own? Via charm? ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/104 "2015-12-09T22:05:32Z")
Lessons from the past are useful if they still apply. I’m not aware of any situation in recent times where in a country with reasonable rule of law agents of states went around doing bad stuff that a citizen with a gun had any hope of stopping. Obviously as long as the public at large has guns the police will need to have them, too. But trying to take guns from people is a dangerous pass-time. First of all, make sure they can’t be sold anymore. Even better, make sure they can’t be made anymore. And/or stop selling the ammo for illegal guns. Make ammo for all guns such that it expires and stops working relatively quickly so people can’t stockpile, and only sell it in small quantities. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/105 "2015-12-09T23:29:26Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > Lessons from the past are useful if they still apply. I’m not aware of any situation in recent times where in a country with reasonable rule of law agents of states went around doing bad stuff that a citizen with a gun had any hope of stopping. > > Obviously as long as the public at large has guns the police will need to have them, too. > > But trying to take guns from people is a dangerous pass-time. First of all, make sure they can’t be sold anymore. Even better, make sure they can’t be made anymore. And/or stop selling the ammo for illegal guns. Make ammo for all guns such that it expires and stops working relatively quickly so people can’t stockpile, and only sell it in small quantities. How’s the so-called war on drugs working in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/106 "2015-12-09T23:30:34Z")
> [@iljitsch](#): > > As soon as they make guns that can’t be used to shoot _me_, feel free to stock up. I’m pretty sure the effective range of any American firearm stops well short of the Hague, no matter what you might have seen in a Bruce Willis movie. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/107 "2015-12-10T00:31:02Z")
Why do so many Europeans feel that its OK for the government to tell them they’re not responsible enough to handle guns? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/108 "2015-12-10T01:57:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > There are people who don’t own guns who still support gun ownership for others. Your statement is disparaging to those people. I hope people will take it as an encouragement to preparedness rather than just an insult. Emergency preparedness is something I put a high value on. Maybe that’s because I grew up in California, and used to joke that I was 20 minutes east of a nuclear power plant (Diablo Canyon), 20 minutes south of a criminal psychiatric facility (Atascadero), 20 minute west of a major prison (CMC) and 20 minutes north of a nuclear missile site (Vandenberg AFB). It was a joke only in rounding all the numbers to 20. When we practiced safety drills at school, we followed “duck and cover” with evacuation to buses in case the quake triggered a nuclear accident that might give us as little as thirty minutes to get out of town safely. My wife was in LA during the Rodney King riots; National Guardsman were posted in her neighborhood. She was in LA during the Northridge earthquake when damage to her apartment building left her with no residence, and when damage to highways made it difficult to travel. So I feel this way about lots of things, though guns are the only controversial item. I have things arranged in my life so that I could throw food, water, guns, first aid kits and camping gear in the back of my car and be on the road in less than an hour. My wife and I actually discussed how much of this gear is in our garage because we might lose it if the house collapsed. (But we do have it packed against an exterior wall; I could probably smash my way in to get the essentials.) It’s not that I stay up nights worrying about this stuff, mind you. It’s just that we sat down and spent a couple of hours thinking about what we’d need, and where we should put it so that we’re ready. I feel very strongly that everyone reading this should be prepared to be self-sufficient without utilities, transportation or civil authorities for up to two weeks. The odds of a disaster happening to you are small, but hardly a month goes by that such a disaster doesn’t happen to someone, somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/109 "2015-12-10T03:09:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Come take them. Since you won’t have a gun your chance of success is very very low. See you think words trump real force. That’s the flawed mental process. I have always enjoyed the droll understatement of the following short passage from Richard Stark’s 1997 thriller novel _Comeback_. The exchange is between Liss, a professional criminal, and the householder into whose apartment he’s just broken… _“Who’s there? I hear you! You better speak up! I’ve got a gun!” Oh, have you, Liss thought. Good; I need a gun._ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/110 "2015-12-10T13:23:49Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I hope people will take it as an encouragement to preparedness rather than just an insult. Well, perhaps if you had framed it as owning a gun is good in disaster preparedness scenarios, I would have seen your point. Telling people that don’t own guns that they live in a fantasyland is not a statement I would take as “encouragement” ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/111 "2015-12-10T14:33:43Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Why do so many Europeans feel that its OK for the government to tell them they’re not responsible enough to handle guns? Not only that, why do so many Europeans assume we need them to tell us what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/112 "2015-12-10T14:39:13Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Not only that, why do so many Europeans assume we need them to tell us what to do? It isn’t all Europeans. Just the ones at this board. Same with Canadians. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/113 "2015-12-10T15:08:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It isn’t all Europeans. Just the ones at this board. Same with Canadians. hardly. John Oliver has made a career out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/114 "2015-12-10T15:20:13Z")
Sticking with the gun issue, IME gun boards like The Firing Line and The High Road have healthy populations of Europeans and Canadians. In meatspace, I’ve taken all manner of foreigners to my gun club for afternoons of shooting. Further, as somebody noted in one of the gun threads running right now, Canadian gun stores sell all the same stuff, plus some, as US gun stores. Somebody is buying that stuff. The Europeans at this board and John Oliver don’t speak for everybody in the EU, any more than the USians at this board and Bill Maher speak for the whole US. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/115 "2015-12-10T15:21:04Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > hardly. John Oliver has made a career out of it. You mean permanent US Resident, New York-based, married-to-an-Iraq-vet John Oliver? _That guy’s_ your example that “Europeans assume we need them to tell us what to do?” Weak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/116 "2015-12-10T15:40:24Z")
Like you peckerwoods listen to Americans who disagree with you. I happen to be a US citizen who lives in Australia. It’s _better_. I don’t hear guns going off at night and wonder who just shot his wife or brother in law over whose turn it was to do the dishes. You shitheels don’t even understand that Constitution you keep jerking on. The founders of the United States were hard-bitten revolutionaries who had no great respect for the common man-- hence the Electoral College. Yet you history-illiterate dogfuckers reckon Madison and Washington would have conversations like: Madison: I say, George, don’t you think we should totally allow for a counter-revolution should the unwashed care to overthrow us? Washington: LOL sure whatever No, dickheads. They thought _standing armies_ were fucking dangerous to them. As in, duh, military coups. Plus I think they were pressed for cash and, really, had no credible local enemies. Hence, militias. Not that they had a good opinion of militias. They had actually seen how shit militias were in battle. That’s why the following vignette has verisimilitude: Madison: I say, George, would you mind if we equipped militias with firearms? You might have to face them on the battlefield someday. Washington: LOL sure whatever Militias, in actual practice, and post Revolution, were used to put down rebellions. Some of you probably dimly remember Shays’ Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion from when you went to school in the 50s. They taught history back then, right? Mitilias put them both down. The well regulated militia, which is the half of the 2nd Am. that you dickface assfucks always forget, was an arm of the government, used to rub out tax protestors. Duh. And then, AND THEN, you fucking fools think that militias, as in unformed armed mobs of clowns like yourselves, would be a check on tyranny. What fucking tyranny have you stopped with your gun? What fucking tyranny have you stopped, ever? Like you’d put your fat ass on the line for anything but your own fat white ass at this late date. Hey, that’s cool, I’m chickenshit too, but I don’t buy a gun and pretend I’M SAVING FUCKING DEMOCRACY AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN WITH IT. Any of you feel like stopping tyranny, just step right up to the treason bar, drink up and see what it gets you. Seeing how you’re old white dudes, maybe you just get a talking to, real gentle like. [Maybe not.](http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2013/04/18/1226623/466808-waco-davidians.jpg) When gays were getting stomped, I don’t remember seeing you there. Not a single nerdy white guy with his NRA button on his trilby was captured on celluloid during the Stonewall Riots. When migrant laborers were getting their heads cracked for starting the UFW, I don’t remember you and Cletus getting your shootin’ irons and making a show of solidarity. And in all the Civil Rights movement, I don’t recall ever seeing a motherfucking one of your ilk guarding freedom riders. But I sure as fuck remember MLK and Medgar Evers getting their asses capped by assholes with guns. SURELY MUST’VE BEEN PREVENTING SOME TYRANNY THERE, RIGHT BOYS? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/117 "2015-12-10T15:43:36Z")
I agree. It is better for you in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/118 "2015-12-10T15:46:04Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Not only that, why do so many Europeans assume we need them to tell us what to do? Because you obviously haven’t got a damned clue? Also shoutouts to Dave Hartwick, that’s a damn good post right there. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/119 "2015-12-10T16:18:29Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I agree. It is better for you in Australia. LOL sure whatever ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849/120 "2015-12-10T16:20:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Because you obviously haven’t got a damned clue? Hey, at least we know how to bath and don’t go to gatherings smelling like a skunk that just shit on itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-feel-they-need-tools-for-killing-people/739849.md?page=7)