# Why do so many Americans seem against an equivalent of the NHS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396 "2009-08-14T12:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/61 "2009-08-14T18:44:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think you really understood what he was saying here. “Taxing his benefits” refers to the proposal (put forward by McCain and Obama) to tax the value of the employer-provided health insurance that covers most Americans. In theory, it would be a tax on the employer (and hence something of a disincentive for employers to offer their employees health insurance) but in practice it’d just come out of people’s paychecks (which I’m not keen on either). Which itself also needs explaining for a non-US type. One of the reasons healthcare is most often provided by the employer in the first place is that it’s supposed to be tax-exempt, so the money on insurance comes out of your pre-tax earnings. If health insurance were subject to tax, that would sort of remove that advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/62 "2009-08-14T18:59:47Z")
To Americans health care is NOT public policy. To most other Western nations health care IS a matter of public policy. You would be hard pressed to find any Americans who would say “You know I’ve never called the police once in my life. Why should _ **I** _ pay taxes for something I don’t use.” Americans accept police and fire protection is public policy and will be paid for out of taxes whether or not any one actually uses it. Not so with healthcare. No American would say, “You’ve been robbed? Well you should’ve paid Brinks to guard your home, accept your loss.” Yet most Americans have no problem saying, 'You broke your arm? Well you should’ve bought insurance." Now there is no correct answer to whether or not healthcare in America should be a matter of public policy like police or fire protection. But that is WHY the difference. Europeans have a lot of differences with Americans, especially on social issues. I remember during former President Bill Clinton’s affair, all the Europeans I talked with were like “So what, who cares?” Now I’m not saying all Europeans would’ve said that, but that seemed to be the general attitude. I remember I was working at a company and I got five days a year and I didn’t use mine by December 31st, so I lost them. You lost sick days but not vacation days I was complaining and the intern, who was a Dutch girl looked at me and said “Mark, you should stop complaining and just be thankful you DIDN’T NEED to use them. Isn’t it better to healthy than to need to use the sick days?” And you know she had a point. So on healthcare there are differences, but it really boils down to this: Does America want to make healthcare a matter of public policy? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/63 "2009-08-14T19:00:05Z")
> [@Bisected8](#): > > As a Briton I’ve grown up being able to visit a GP whenever I had a snivel, had all my vaccinations for free and known that if I was ever injured (as I was at about the age of 8 when I suffered a concussion from being pushed over in the playground) without having to worry about whether or not my self-employed father could afford it It’s not free, your father paid for it when you were a child and you pay for it now as an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/64 "2009-08-14T19:11:26Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’m a Briton and I have a completely different viewpoint to that of the OP. The unhygienic conditions in many British hospitals are a national disgrace. You’re more likely to catch MRSA (the ‘superbug’) in a British hospital than almost any other in Western Europe. > > Last year HCP, a Swedish company which analyses European healthcare, published “a detailed assessment of health system performance in all 27 European Union countries.” ([Full report here](http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/media/Rapport_EHCI_2007.pdf)). Note this is a PDF file. > > The UK came 17th, beaten even by Estonia. > > More and more Britons are turning to private insurers to provide a decent standard of health care, to avoid the long waiting lists and unsanitary wards of the NHS. THIS. Some of the things I’ve found about the UK system: [A 9-month wait for arthritis treatment](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1199714/A-9-month-wait-arthritis-treatment-Delay-mean-lifetime-agony-victims.html): Delay can mean a lifetime of agony for victims \*\* Guidelines state that patients should receive treatment within three months of the first symptoms appearing. But the average wait is nine months - and GPs are not trained well enough to know what help to offer. There is no cure, but experts say that if arthritis is diagnosed in the first three months, drugs can be given which limit its progression. This means the disease will not be as painful as it would have been if the condition was diagnosed later. \*\* The GUIDELINE is 3 months from symptom to treatment. This just to get a prescription. [Delays In UK Child Brain Tumour Diagnosis](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/160184.php) **Significant numbers of children in the UK are suffering from preventable levels of disability, particularly blindness, and premature death because of poor diagnosis of brain tumours. ----- The average time between the onset of symptoms and diagnosis in children in the UK is between two and three months, that’s up to three times longer than the rest of Europe and the USA.** This hits home because a friend of mine went through this and his son was moved via private jet to a facility after doctors diagnosed a seizure/brain tumor in a timely manner. There was no wait for an MRI or other equipment. When I had kidney stones I went to the hospital emergency room and got an X-ray and MRI with no waiting. I went back to my doctor twice and a specialist twice over the next 2 weeks to change pain medication and on the last visit I was offered the option of operating which I took and they were removed 2 hours later. DONE. I can’t begin to imagine what a target of 18 weeks would be like from diagnosis to treatment. [Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-) **The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.** This is a nothing treatment that my doctor would give me in a routine office visit. It would be like getting an aspirin. All the horror stories are current and follow a major improvement of delays that the UK system has focused on. This is the new and improved NHS system. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/65 "2009-08-14T19:14:03Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > I > > And when people ask me about wait times, I used to point them to an article from the Houston Chronicle that I used to have bookmarked on my computer: a U.S. woman went to the ER at a Dallas TX hospital for a suspected broken leg, waited 19 hours, then left without seeing a doctor. She was still billed for the hospital visit. > > _The Dallas Morning News_ published the story on a Tuesday, the hospital changed its policy the following day. The same hospital was already battling a PR problem because not long before, a man died in the ER following another 19 hour wait. Case in point. I don’t see a government program reacting to a couple of dissatisfied patients. I do see money spent to tell us how great it is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/66 "2009-08-14T19:17:50Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Wasn’t there someone on the boards who lost his job and so could not longer afford his psychiatric medication, and because he was no longer medicated it made him too unstable to be employable? > > No job = no meds. No meds = no job. Yippy! A problem worthy of an appropriate solution and not a massive government program. Tax funded or Tax rebated Cobra would be a good start. Lets focus on and fix what’s broken. Everybody is behind this 100%. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/67 "2009-08-14T19:26:51Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > I really am not trying to pick a fight, but here is a point of truth: If you ask a mostly liberal board why conservatives don’t like something, you are going to get a different answer than if you asked a mostly conservative board. No matter if either or neither is actually factually correct. > > With that being said, I am quite surprised that very few comments in here have stated what most of my conservative friends/family believe. > > I think this quote mostly sums it up. We have seen people get health care from the government. From the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid. Although there will always be anecdotes saying they got great care from one of these, overall, these government run programs do not have a sterling reputation of fast help and great customer service. > > For the vast majority of the people that I know (and that are against govt health care), they get better care than the average govt run program. > > I get GREAT health care from my employer. If the government starts to give the stuff out for free (or near free), I am sure it will take exactly 0.23 seconds for my employer to drop that coverage. Overall, I am of the opinion that my health care service will go down. > > For some it may go up, but for me, I would anticipate down. It doesn’t take shady big-pharma conspiracy theories or million dollar lobbying to explain why I might not be a huge fan. I have heard a lot of arguments about health care. The fact that you believe you have good coverage is not compelling. Your company cost goes up by a chunk every year. Eventually, most employers decide to cut coverage, make employees kick in ,or buy a cheaper plan. What you have today may not be what you have next year. Most of the people who are facing bankruptcy due to health problems had coverage. The companies just decide not to pay. They love you until you need them, then they get rid of you. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/68 "2009-08-14T19:33:17Z")
Do people just regurgitate shit these days if the shit agrees with their existing stance on an issue? Instead of doing so, let’s go to the actual survey itself. 46% of respondents were treated within 3 months, 32% had to wait 6 months or more, and 23% had to wait over a year. Digging deeper, we find that fully one third of those who had to “wait” in reality waited over 6 months after symptom onset to see their GP for the first time. If I get treated 9 months after onset, but didn’t visit my GP until 8 months after onset, I don’t think that’s really a terrible thing. It does appear that there are some actual issues, primarily getting faster referrals to specialists and choice of treatment options. That’s not really anything that we’re unfamiliar with in America. Come on people, read this stuff if you want to toss crap around. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/69 "2009-08-14T19:43:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Some of the things I’ve found about the UK system: > [A 9-month wait for arthritis treatment](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1199714/A-9-month-wait-arthritis-treatment-Delay-mean-lifetime-agony-victims.html) [“After she earned an undergraduate degree from the University of Notre Dame and became too old to stay on the family’s insurance plan, her out-of-pocket cost for medication was $1,800 a month. She ended up enrolling in law school both because she wanted to be an attorney – and because it was cheaper to pay for a law degree and get health care through her school than to pay for prescriptions out of her own pocket.”](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125020855763330843.html) > [@Magiver](#): > > [Delays In UK Child Brain Tumour Diagnosis](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/160184.php) > Significant numbers of children in the UK are suffering from preventable levels of disability, particularly blindness, and premature death because of poor diagnosis of brain tumours. ----- The average time between the onset of symptoms and diagnosis in children in the UK is between two and three months, that’s up to three times longer than the rest of Europe and the USA. ["The survey showed that a startling 91% of patients were working and had insurance before being diagnosed. Despite this fact, many middle-income people had to borrow money from friends and family, max out credit cards, sell their homes and cars, declare bankruptcy and in some cases even become homeless because they couldn’t pay their bills. "](http://bobthebrain.blogspot.com/) > [@Magiver](#): > > [Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-)The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million. [“Many who do not have access to healthcare overuse over-the-counter pain medications such as acetaminophen because of pain, finds a U.S. study.”](http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/619587/many_uninsured_overuse_pain_medication/index.html) Want to bet there are more horror stories about the US system than there are about the NHS? [SUB]You know, it’s a real bitch to strip out color formatting when quoting you.[/SUB] ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/70 "2009-08-14T19:53:27Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Want to bet there are more horror stories about the US system than there are about the NHS? If you’d like to start counting them, you could start with my father, who was in a major car collision with an elderly driver and suffered a head injury that left him with the faculties of a toddler for months. After years of rehab to re-learn how to talk, dial a telephone, and hold a conversation, plus a few operations for the physical damage from the crash, the insurance company decided that my dad was faking and thus refused to pay. They brought out their own doctors who ran rigged tests (“Are you sure you didn’t mean to answer _this_?”) and decided he was fine, and threatened to sue for fraud if my parents tried to fight. Financially destroyed, when I was 10 we moved from a million dollar house to a small condo. My dad now subsists on the disability payments he gets from social security. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/71 "2009-08-14T20:15:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …fails to take into account a fairly obvious point- that under a universal coverage system, it will no longer be necessary for you to fill out an encyclopaedia…This will eliminate more than half of the bureaucrats-per-patient… I don’t believe this. Not until I see it. I’ve worked in government too long to think that they can do _anything_ with less bureaucratic mess. > [@wierdaaron](#): > > Further, I don’t think it’s an opinion to say that a great many of the people protesting are only doing so because the president is of a different race than them, and that scares them Bullshit. What was that, like, 1 guy? Again, this is an example of the “disagree with me? Racist/idiot/ignorant fool/ jerk!” trick that permeates this debate. Liberals want to act like it’s the right wing that flings this stuff around, but I see it all the time on here and in liberal media. “Why does the right disagree with the left?” “Well, they’re mostly stoopid idiotic morons! Q.E.D.” > [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > All good points, I’ll look at them from the perspective of someone living in Canada > > 1. Make it optional. I’m not talking about opt-out of benefits. I mean opt-out of paying into it. > > It comes from income taxes, so you can’t really opt-out of it because the pot of revenue generated for the government through income taxes gets divvied up in various ways. > > And you’re saying you never need any kind of health care? You’re very lucky. > > 1. Don’t tax my benefits. This is sorta #1 but more explicit. > > You can actually claim deductions for a lot of out of pocket expenses you had to pay for things like dentistry that weren’t covered by your provincial health plan > 3) Don’t cap what the program is willing to spend. I don’t want doctors rationing medicine and treatment because they have a budget. > > Unlike private insurance, they don’t. For example, when I was still living and working in the U.S. I had a crappy insurance plan that covered me up to something like $100,000 of stuff within X amount of time. Beyond that, the co-pay got ridiculous or I was SOL. > > 1. Cover catastrophic costs (chemo, surgeries) but leave a high copay for the rest. I don’t want a doctor or patient spending and spending due to a combination of moral hazard and CYA. Otherwise, you get patients going to get treatment for a splinter and doctors ordering 30 MRIs “just to be safe” (\<–exaggerated, I know). > > That doesn’t really happen. It’s too impractical, a waste of resources and the College of Physicians would probably look into a doctor’s behavior if he was being an idiot and abusing the system. Doctors still have malpractice insurance in Canada. > > Having a co-pay for everything except catastrophic illness would defeat the entire purpose of the system: that everyone has access to medically necessary health care. There would be a disparity for those who are well off and wouldn’t hesitate to go to the doctor and those who are poor who would hold off until the situation is dire. Also, you are much more likely to end up with people making arbitrary decisions about what is catastrophic and what isn’t. (Then you’d get those pesky Death Panels). > > If only catastrophic events were covered, overall health would decline. Parents would be less likely to bring kids in for routine examinations and vaccines, most preventative medicine would go out the window, major things would get diagnosed late while the sumptoms still seemed trivial. > > 1. Require some sort of service in return. > > Again that would defeat the purpose of providing equal access for all. My grandma suffered from severe dementia and developed a neurological disease. She couldn’t walk or even feed herself. What exactly would you have her do in return for all the health care she received? 1. So since you want to transfer wealth by force, I’m against it. Offer up a government corporation like Fannie Mae or Amtrak that will compete with private insurance by not seeking profit, but don’t force me to pay for it. 2. I’m talking about employer benefits. 3. See, to me, that’s upside down. You should pay the first portion and the gov’t should pay the second. There shouldn’t be a limit on coverage, it should be a deductible. This should vary according to what treatment you’re getting. Simple, cheap things, you pay a higher portion of. 4. You misread or misunderstood. I didn’t say “catastrophic events”. I said “catastrophic costs”. It doesn’t matter what it is. After a certain $ level is reached, the gov’t pays the rest. I started a thread on that recently, but the search isn’t working right now. 5. It could just be money. And I realize that it’s not applicable to anyone. There’s no way I could present all the caveats here because a) there’s not enough room, and b) I’m not a doctor. > [@Lobohan](#): > > 1. And just because you’re saying second hand stories on the internet, doesn’t mean they actually happened. Cites plz. > > 2. Under the current plan you aren’t going to pay into it unless you make more than $250k a year. 1. Sorry, the lawyer was late for the deposition so we didn’t get it all down. And as soon as I figure out how to upload the voice recording, I’ll give you that cite. 2. OH! Well, you didn’t tell me it was \*just \*rich people being kicked- again- around. Well of course I’m all for it, then. Those thieving bastards shouldn’t have went and made all that money. :rolleyes: I forgot to a liberal “Only hurts the rich” is the same thing as “Harmless”. Can you explain why anyone making $250k a year owes anyone else anything? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/72 "2009-08-14T20:25:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I don’t believe this. Not until I see it. I’ve worked in government too long to think that they can do _anything_ with less bureaucratic mess. > Bullshit. What was that, like, 1 guy? Again, this is an example of the “disagree with me? Racist/idiot/ignorant fool/ jerk!” trick that permeates this debate. Liberals want to act like it’s the right wing that flings this stuff around, but I see it all the time on here and in liberal media. > > “Why does the right disagree with the left?” > “Well, they’re mostly stoopid idiotic morons! Q.E.D.” > > 1. So since you want to transfer wealth by force, I’m against it. Offer up a government corporation like Fannie Mae or Amtrak that will compete with private insurance by not seeking profit, but don’t force me to pay for it. > > 2. I’m talking about employer benefits. > > 3. See, to me, that’s upside down. You should pay the first portion and the gov’t should pay the second. There shouldn’t be a limit on coverage, it should be a deductible. This should vary according to what treatment you’re getting. Simple, cheap things, you pay a higher portion of. > > 4. You misread or misunderstood. I didn’t say “catastrophic events”. I said “catastrophic costs”. It doesn’t matter what it is. After a certain $ level is reached, the gov’t pays the rest. I started a thread on that recently, but the search isn’t working right now. > > 5. It could just be money. And I realize that it’s not applicable to anyone. There’s no way I could present all the caveats here because a) there’s not enough room, and b) I’m not a doctor. > > 6. Sorry, the lawyer was late for the deposition so we didn’t get it all down. And as soon as I figure out how to upload the voice recording, I’ll give you that cite. > > 7. OH! Well, you didn’t tell me it was \*just \*rich people being kicked- again- around. Well of course I’m all for it, then. Those thieving bastards shouldn’t have went and made all that money. :rolleyes: I forgot to a liberal “Only hurts the rich” is the same thing as “Harmless”. Can you explain why anyone making $250k a year owes anyone else anything? Because they will profit more from it, because health care for everyone will help the economy. Why do you get to use a road I paid for? Why do your children go to school for free on my taxes? I think you should take some time and learn how the country actually works before getting high-and-mighty about how liberals are destroying the nation. Also, what makes you think anyone who makes over 250k a year is taxed at the magical \*right \*amount now? They were taxed much higher in the past, maybe that was the magic \*right \*amount. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/73 "2009-08-14T20:39:08Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I don’t believe this. Not until I see it. I’ve worked in government too long to think that they can do _anything_ with less bureaucratic mess. When you’ve worked in healthcare, we’ll talk. No government program- not one- is even _close_ to the ridiculous snarl of idiocy that is the US healthcare billing system. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/74 "2009-08-14T20:39:21Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Want to bet there are more horror stories about the US system than there are about the NHS? also, I’ve noticed one _huge_ difference between the American horror stories and the NHS: The NHS horror stories are usually about long delays before getting access to treatment. The US/private insurance company horror stories are usually about _totally denying_ access to treatment. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/75 "2009-08-14T20:39:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Bullshit. What was that, like, 1 guy? Again, this is an example of the “disagree with me? Racist/idiot/ignorant fool/ jerk!” trick that permeates this debate. Logical fallacy. I said many people protesting are doing so for racial reasons, that has nothing to do with vilifying people who disagree with me. This started as a GQ thread, and the original Q was “why do so many americans seem against” the reform. My answer is that many of the people who seem to be against it are going to be against anything the President does/says/thinks. I did not say that everybody who is against it is a racist. That would be a generalization, itself a fallacy with no place in debate. The problem with most political debates is that they quickly degrade from debates to noise. People get passionate about their stance, and come to believe that anybody who disagrees with them somehow causes them harm. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/76 "2009-08-14T21:35:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > An [editorial](http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2009/08/14/OVfri.ART_ART_08-14-09_A10_N4EOAVQ.html?sid=101) from the Times of London reprinted in our local paper today: > > \*" THERE IS a truth about modern health care that is consistently ignored. Demand will always beat supply. > > That is because the demands we have of the service are now out of all alignment with our willingness to pay for them. There are more pensioners than in any previous era and they are living to the ripe ages at which they contract expensively treatable diseases. The genius of health scientists has made more diseases treatable, usually with new drugs that are, at least initially, very expensive. It is not surprising that citizens demand all that can be done. In a public system, every citizen is sensitive to pain and insensitive to price. > > At the same time, health care is getting less effective at preventing conditions such as obesity and its associated links with diabetes that are the upshot of dietary and lifestyle choices. Britain’s National Health Service has never really been that. It is a national illness-fixing service. The health of the nation actually has rather little to do with the NHS and that poor correlation is getting worse, to costly effect. > > These are serious problems, but the solutions are not hard to enumerate, even if they are difficult to swallow. Health care will have to be rationed further. We can do this by price, by availability or by time. Patients can be charged for some services that are currently free; some elective and noncatastrophic services may have to be excluded; or people will again have to get used to waiting a long time. > > It makes no sense to pretend that fully comprehensive health provision can all be funded out of general taxation. … The greatest danger to health care in Britain comes from those false friends who are still pretending that we do not need to change."\* > > – The Times, London All of this is true without socialized medicine. Socialism doesn’t create the need for rationing, it just makes rationing more likely to be uneven, unjust, & price-based; the last of which means even those who get treatment suffer economically. > [@](#): > > So let’s not pretend it’s all a matter of American politics and “culture”. I’m not pretending. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/77 "2009-08-14T21:47:31Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > They come from _my_ friends who have lived in Europe. Just yesterday, my coworker/friend who lived in Britain for 4 or 5 years told of how she was refused antibiotics (or something) to get rid of an ear infection. She was dizzy and vomitting but the doctors told her she couldn’t have any medicine because “it would get better eventually anyway”. This is absolute garbage and the exact polar opposite to my experience with the same condition. The plural of anecdote is not data, and there are horror stories from each side. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/78 "2009-08-14T22:09:07Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > You want my support for national healthcare insurance? Fine. Here’s what you need to present: > > 1. Make it optional. I’m not talking about opt-out of benefits. I mean opt-out of paying into it. > 2. Don’t tax my benefits. This is sorta #1 but more explicit. > 3. Don’t cap what the program is willing to spend. I don’t want doctors rationing medicine and treatment because they have a budget. > 4. Cover catastrophic costs (chemo, surgeries) but leave a high copay for the rest. I don’t want a doctor or patient spending and spending due to a combination of moral hazard and CYA. Otherwise, you get patients going to get treatment for a splinter and doctors ordering 30 MRIs “just to be safe” (\<–exaggerated, I know). > 5. Require some sort of service in return. Americorp, military, licking stamps at the post office, I don’t care. If I give someone money, they better give me something in return. Even Habitat for Humanity requires that the recipient help build the next home. No reciprocation, no deal. I think there’s some ground for compromise here; but do you really want **high copays for pulling splinters?** ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/79 "2009-08-14T22:11:24Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So, OP, you want to know why everyone is against it? Because you want to steal my money for something I don’t want or need, and we all end up like [Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland](http://www.forbes.com/global/2006/0522/032a.html). I’m tired of the SDMB liberal mafia making out like UHC is obviously awesome and I’m either fear-mongering, ignorant, or stupid to disagree. You realize that the Nordic countries get A LOT for their high taxes, right? You’re not helping your argument here; better you would have stuck with the dingy crappy NHS hospitals in Britain. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/80 "2009-08-14T22:13:53Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > [Me: have you ever dealt with the VA?]I have. What do you want to know? I have not dealt with them so I don’t know if the experience is any good or not. What was the experience like? Do you think that any sort of national health care program will be like the VA? I am at this point neither for nor against proposed changes in health care. In fact, as mentioned above, the debate is so cloudy that I don’t know what to think. If it is in fact true that we spend significantly more per capita than other countries and don’t get anything for our extra money, then I agree that something has to change. If our current health care system weakens our overall economy, then I agree that something has to change. If big pharmaceutical companies are trying to increase the price of drugs by erecting barriers to trade, then I agree that something has to change. I want to know what the change will be, what it will cost and how it will be an improvement over the current situation. I want to hear appeals to my pragmatism, not my altruism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396.md?page=5)