# Why do so many Americans seem against an equivalent of the NHS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396 "2009-08-14T12:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/141 "2009-08-17T22:40:12Z")
Wow, **Scylla** , that sure seems to happen to you a lot! Can’t count how many times you have been forced to abandon a debate by the dishonest tactics of your opponents. Or have been left no option but to bewail the misrepresentation and mischaracterizations of your posts. It seems so unfair! You think maybe its some kind of hoodoo cast by a witch? Why on earth should such a fair-minded and respectful debater such as yourself be so relentlessly hounded by the dishonest and underhanded? Its a mystery! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/142 "2009-08-17T23:36:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wow, **Scylla** , that sure seems to happen to you a lot! Not really. It must seem that way, since it usually only happens when I’m talking to you. In fact, this guy’s kind of like an **elucidator** lite. “All the deceit but only half the calories.” > [@](#): > > Why on earth should such a fair-minded and respectful debater such as yourself be so relentlessly hounded by the dishonest and underhanded? Perhaps you’ll share your motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/143 "2009-08-18T13:36:29Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Let me get this straight. You will go on at length objecting to the use of “king” as synonym for monarch, but you would argue that “interfering (which is to impede)” is synonymous with “to take care of (which is to help.)” The claim that a homonym is a synonym does upset me somewhat, yes. You wouldn’t claim that a car’s a lorry now, would you? > [@](#): > > “interfere with” and “take care of” are practically antonyms. They mean almost exactly the opposite. Nice try. Perhaps in the same way terrorist is the opposite of freedom fighter. Interference is changing how something would otherwise happen as an external force. Protecting someone is by definition interference. That’s the problem with some people, they act as if their opinions towards an event change its nature. By they way, I know what an antonym is, thank you. > [@](#): > > I think debating should be people using words to communicate ideas. The arguing should be about the ideas. You, can’t seem to get beyond semantics. > > A worthy debater would realize that the idea being expressed here is the degree of involvement of government in the day to day life of its citizens, specifically, that enforcing the law of the land is an acceptable amount, but running their healthcare is an unacceptable amount of involvement. > > An unworthy and disingenuous debater (such as you have been) ignores the idea, and argues semantics and absolutes as a substitute. No. An unworthy (or perhaps from another perspective, very good) debater resorts to insults, tries to avoid answering tricky questions and ignores valid arguments (or at least arguments that they are unable to counter) by shifting the issue to those they feel they can attack. > [@](#): > > My arguing that NHS is excessive involvement does not mean that you can rationally or honestly argue that I am saying all involvement is bad. This is particularly so, when I brought up this specific point in the post you are quoting from when I said that a certain minimum is necessary. And my argument, however much you wish to try and avoid it, is that providing healthcare is no different to providing law enforcement. Breaking a leg is no different to being burgled; both could happen at any time and leave you in a tight spot. Both can be dealt with by having insurance (if you can afford it) and both can be helped by government intervention. > [@](#): > > Hence, you continue to confirm my initial judgement that you don’t really deserve serious consideration as a debater > > Probably I wouldn’t. But, I won’t offer you the consideration and respect of doing so while you are continuing to debate poorly and in bad faith. I find it strange. You claim I am unworthy of a response to most of my arguments, yet you continued this one. Perhaps my character is the only thing you have left to question. Ergo ego vinco vici victum. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/144 "2009-08-18T22:08:28Z")
Why do so many Americans oppose any changes to the health care system? Because so many Americans have insurance perceived as “free” (i.e. paid for by employer contributions and paycheck deductions) that pays for everything from allergy pills to crazy stuff like acupuncture, chiropractic, thousand-dollar-a-day treatments to keep Grandma alive for her 98th birthday in the nursing home, whatever their hearts desire. They have nothing to gain from any changes to the system. It takes a little imagination to see the long-term problems with that, but Americans have never been very imaginative about that sort of thing. All that sinister lobbying, politics, corruption, etc. is just noise on top of that basic signal. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/145 "2009-08-19T12:29:14Z")
Here are two interesting tidbits: 1. Last year, thanks to the National Health Insurance here in South Korea I was able to afford a month in the hospital due to a severely broken bone in my right foot. The NHI is run by a staunchly anti-Communist government. 2. I grew up covered by a form of socialized health care and as an adult I was also covered by the same insurance. Actually, I still am covered now by that plan but not to the same extent as I was before retirement. Said insurance is the US military’s healt care program. And that program is run by an anti-Communist government! So, what do I think is behind the opposition to a government health care program? Prejudice and fear based on ignorance is the only answer I can find. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/146 "2009-08-19T20:36:36Z")
For an interesting take on why attitudes are so entrenched see the columnist [Daniel Finkelstein](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article6801061.ece)in today’s Times. > [@](#): > > The debate about American reform begins with the American system. The debate about British reform begins with the NHS. Voters in both countries fear what they stand to lose more than they look forward to what they stand to gain. Since they fear losing different things — in the US case, for instance, they fear loss of choice and control, while in the UK we fear losing universality — the debates in the two countries will always be different. > > On a piece of paper, in a pamphlet, it may seem helpful to pitch one country’s system against another. But practically? Politically? It really isn’t that useful. The US will never create the NHS and the UK will not adopt the American system because we are starting in different places. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396/147 "2009-08-19T23:07:38Z")
It’s interesting to consider that Medicare was established in 1965, during the height of the Cold War. Back then the perceived common enemy was the Communist bloc, and against that backdrop, the similar values shared by the Western democracies were more important than the differences. Now that the Communist bloc is no more, the conservatives now decry “Swedish” or “Canadian” style “socialized health care” as the bogeyman. Ironically, the poorest of the poor, and everyone over 65 already receive some kind of health insurance, from the government, for free–and they tend to be the most at risk. Poor people generally tend to have a higher incidence of obesity and tobacco use, less access to healthy food, and less time to prepare it. If they work, they are less likely to have the time or resources to bother about such things as exercise. The over-sixty fives, again, just by the nature of human physiology, are also more prone to illness. It stands to reason that extending a some sort of public-option health insurance program to the great excluded middle would be far less expensive on a per-capita basis, than Medicare and Medicaid are now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-americans-seem-against-an-equivalent-of-the-nhs/506396.md?page=7)