I have absolutely no math skills. I never even took algebra in highschool. Thus, when I approached the local college, the woman took one look at my transcript and laughed. Can’t get in unless you’ve had it.
When life hands you lemons, throw them at somebody.
Yeah, but I think most are in agreement that algebra is the base level of knowledge you do need. It really is something you should learn in high school.
Please don’t say this about mathematics.
I agree, the mathematical theories and formulas have no use in everyday life. But, as Elijah says, it’s not the formulas that are important, it’s the method.
Mathematics disciplines and organizes your mind. It puts every value in solid black and white. I know in the real world nothing is truly set in black and white, but it helps one’s judgment if certain values are more firmly placed.
For an example I’ll use a mugging. You get mugged. What are the values in balance here? A) The mugger wants your money. B)You want your money. A.1) The mugger threatens your life. B.1) You want your life, and perhaps very reasonably consider your life more valuable than your money at hand. A.2) The mugger wants the least risk in getting your money. B.2) You will take every action not to give the mugger your money.
My point is, the more solidly your values are placed, the better judgment you can make. For instance, you can see in the mugger that he is nervous. You can capitalize on this by saying, “Dude, I just got mugged 10 minutes ago!” And as the mugger tries to contemplate this in his fury of thought, punch him in the face. On the other hand, if you see true intent to kill, then gladly fork over the wallet.
Perhaps this isn’t a good example. I can’t think of a better, or more concise, one now.
Mathematics has helped me to think laterally. Mathematics is not a science, but a philosophy. All humans think logically. I have no basis for this hypothesis, but in my experience it is true. When people are wrong, it’s mostly because their postulates are wrong. It’s rarely logic, although I’ve met some pretty circular people. But in my experience, most people will not disagree when it comes to logic. They will disagree on values and postulates, but not logic.
I don’t remember much of the formulas or theories of math. But I do have to say that I will never forget the methods, or algorithms. Logical thought has benefitted me greatly.
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Me:
Beeruser:
I didn’t say it about mathematics, I said it about calculus. Apparently, calculus didn’t help you with those reading comprehension skills. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. 
Anyhow, I don’t believe it was mathematics that taught me the critical thinking you’ve tried to illustrate. I credit that to literature, of all things. Art and music have been shown to have a great influence on “intelligence”, also. Yet where are these subjects in our grade schools and colleges? Oh yes, they’ve been cut, cut and cut a little more.
I remember the movie “Dead Poets Society.”
Robin Williams says something to the effect of: Science and mathematics and engineering are things we need to live. Literature, art, and music, these are the things we live for.
The arts shouldn’t forcibly be taught. This is the good stuff. To really appreciate art, one has to seek it on his/her own.
Higher level mathematics has a certain beauty and elegance. It really has nothing to do with the real world. It can be considered an art from this standpoint.
And it looks like I’ve contradicted myself. If calculus is “higher mathematics,” then maybe it shouldn’t really be pushed so hard in college. Only those who really want to learn it can appreciate it fully.
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Beeruser>
This had always been my view of art. I didn’t really think it should be taught alongside “real” subjects (i.e. science).
But the more research that’s coming out about the effects of art and music instruction, the more I stop believing that.
After all, look at how immersed in art and music the society was from which calculus sprung forth…
calculus can come in handy if you’re a cartoonist. . .
http://www.csun.edu/~hcmth014/comics/ca20.jpg
Okay now I have to get off the internet and take my linear algebra final. Once I’m done with that course and my grades are in, I’ll start a thread about what on earth we need to know Linear Algebra for 
“I’m just too much for human existence – I should be animated.”
–Wayne Knight
I think the reason for requiring calculus in many fields where practically it will never be used, is the same reason that I (as a chemist turned biophysicist) had to take 4 semesters of French. I certainly never use it. I never plan on going to France; and, even if I did, it probably wouldn’t be job related. So why was I required to take it?
I think the answer lies in the fact that a University or college is supposed to each you more than just a trade. If they just locked you up in a room for 4 years and taught you only the things you needed to succeed in your particular little niche, then you would be a skilled laborer and not an “educated” person.
Not that there is anything wrong with skilled labor, but I think you get my point. N’est pas?
“If you stick your finger in a pie, whatever is in the pie will be on your finger, and whatever is on your finger will be in the pie…unless you wear a rubber glove”----some demented old lady
I have two problems with this.
[list=a][li]If they stuck to your “trade”, it wouldn’t take 4 (or 5 as is increasingly becoming the trend) years. It would be more like 1 or 2.[/li]It doesn’t work. I’ve seen far too many college graduates to think “education” is a result of college. I think that kind of thing is really determined sometime in elementary school. I think most people that go into college as “educated” will come out as “educated”. Others will go in as dullards and come out as dullards. Being forced to take a class does not make it education. In fact, it usually has the opposite effect. When people take the incentive to seek learning on their own - that is when they get “education.”[/list=a]
Personally, I think that the main reason for having to learn calc in college is as was stated earlier, the university is attempting to create people with a rounded education. The university doesn’t know if the Comp Sci person is going to be programming an ATM or if the person is going to be writing software to chart Wall Street economic trends, nor should they, the BS in CS should be a generalized degree, designed to put out someone who can write code for any situation as needed. And for that attitude, one can see the need for Calc, as well as for many other educations. With regards to people who feel that the university should know what sort of programs that the student will be writing, so that the student can specialize early, all I can say is that is a trend I deeply hope will soon reverse.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” --R.A. Heinlein
Something I’ve always believed.
>>while contemplating the navel of the universe, I wondered, is it an innie or outie?<<
—The dragon observes
I took four semesters of calculus in high school and college, and never used it, and never plan to. Then again, I did switch out of sciences into creative arts…
Narille>
One can think of a plethora of classes that a student “should” take to get a “rounded” education. Two that aren’t required right now would be physics and chemistry. I’m sure I could think of more if need be.
But the basic point is, you can keep loading up more and more stuff ad nauseaum. Unfortunately, you don’t get the lofty goal of a rounded education. Instead, you dilute all these classes by not prioritizing them.
I also find your idea of a “rounded” education interesting. By taking calculus in technical degree tracts, these students become more “rounded”. I would have thought it arts and music would have much more of a rounding effect on these people. Instead, you’re just throwing more technical information at them.
As per your Heinlein quote, I think it’s complete BS. I can either excel in a few fields, or attain mediocrity on a broad scale. I’ll choose excellence.
Sadistic>
I vote we should attain mediocrity on a broad scale, and excel in a few fields. We shouldn’t limit ourselves to one or the other.
Now that I think of it, that’s what college is for.
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Bravo! beeruser.
Ya know, it seems somewhat ironic to me that there is such a reluctance to acknowledge the importance of a well rounded education in this particular forum.
“If you stick your finger in a pie, whatever is in the pie will be on your finger, and whatever is on your finger will be in the pie…unless you wear a rubber glove”----some demented old lady
I think not. My disagreement is in what exactly constitutes this well-rounded education and whether or not it’s the university’s right to force me to pay them to take certain classes.
My other main point was that self-education holds a great deal more value when it comes to this. I just don’t feel that force feeding of “culture” to everyone who passes through a college’s doors is right. Most will just cram and learn the mechanics of the class, not the meaning. And those who learn the meaning would (according to my theory) have sought out the knowledge on their own. It’s that old “leading a horse to water” chestnut.
I’m a software engineer who studied greek and latin in college… and I have to say, the greek and latin have been more useful to me than calculus. I’ve been coding for 10 years now, and have NEVER used anything more complicated than algebra. I write mostly stuff involving OS Internals right now… file system & backup type stuff.
When it comes right down to it, I think the bulk of what’s taught in ANY degree program is filler. Look at the number of non-degree related classes you have to take to get any degree… it’s HUGE! Imagine if you actually spent four years in college learning your trade! We’d actually see programmers coming right out of college who knew how to code. As it is, most places I’ve worked know that if you hire right out of school, you have to spend the first few months showing them how to work in the real world.
I found out that up until recently the local university (a BIG school, well known) taught the first year or two of programming courses in Pascal. Completely useless, in my opinion. Yes, it teaches basic programming concepts, but the only reason to stay with Pascal that I can think of is that the university didn’t want to pay their professors to develop a curriculum in C. And, of course, first year students don’t know any better, so no one complained.
OK, I’ll stop my rant now. I just wish that universities taught actual real-world skills every once in a while.
Obviously Sadistic, I disagree with you. I’d rather excell in one or two areas and know many more. You see the quote is not saying that you should choose mediocrity over excellence, rather that you should choose a wide range of subjects over a narrow one. It can be argued that Heinlein was promoting the Reneasance(sp) man ideal, and noting that the greatest intellectuals were not limited to one subject, Aristotle, Plato, Leonardo, Euler, Openhiemer, Feynmann all had wide ranging interests. One can take great satisfaction in life when one can understand Shakespeare in context, notice historical parallels, appreciate art, comprehend physics, and program well.
>>while contemplating the navel of the universe, I wondered, is it an innie or outie?<<
—The dragon observes
Squid: you were required to take four semesters of French for a chemistry degree? That’s bizarre. Or was it just a “four semesters of a single foreign language” requirement, and you happened to choose French?
Athena: Pascal was designed as a teaching language; I suspect Wirth is as astonished as anyone that some people actually try to use it for real work.
Calculus is how we describe the physical universe through mathematics. Just because you took chemistry or physics and never saw a differential equation, don’t assume it wasn’t there. It was just solved for you. Until Newton came along with calculus, physics was essentially a bunch of empirical knowledge picked up as man went along. By using calculus to describe what we already knew, Newton was able to predict things that were then discovered to be true later !
If you’re going to engage in product design, you have to deal with calculus. The area of any planar surface and the volume of any solid can be calculated using calculus; not just the conveniently shaped ones that have formulas in a handbook. Also, the mathematics underlying any type of computer modeling (weather forecasting, stress analysis, automobile/aircraft performance, etc) are all derived using calculus.
I’m sure there are plenty of Computer Science majors who couldn’t solve a differential equation a to save their lives, even though they had 2-3 semesters in college. That’s fine. However, consider that you may have become the equivalent of a car mechanic. You can fix the problem, but you may not know why it occured, or why the fix worked.
For business majors who don’t want to study calculus, OK with me. You’re now at the mercy of the mathematicians who wrote your security analysis programs using calculus. (Before any of the programmers flame me, remember, if YOU don’t know calculus, you’re just doing what a mathematician/engineer is telling you to do.)
And speaking personally, I wouldn’t mind one bit if even less people studied calculus. That will only result in more demand and higher pay for my already and increasingly rarer skills.
Torq-
“If you stick your finger in a pie, whatever is in the pie will be on your finger, and whatever is on your finger will be in the pie…unless you wear a rubber glove”----some demented old lady