# Why do so many lower class white people have poorly defined chins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005 "2012-04-17T03:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/61 "2012-04-17T20:46:28Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Maternal malnutrition and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, I wonder if they can be linked to being poor? or maybe that’s just too classist. Maternal malnutrition obviously can be linked to being poor. **sitchensis** ’s cite makes it look like fetal alcohol syndrome can, too. It looks like a lower class alcoholic mother had a 70.9% chance of having a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome, while an upper class alcoholic mother had a 4.5% chance. That’s a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/62 "2012-04-17T21:04:16Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Watch the film _Gummo_ sometime. It was filmed in a lower-class suburb of Nashville. Lots of examples of weak/non-existent chins. Actually, _Gummo_ was filmed in Xenia, Ohio. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/63 "2012-04-17T21:22:22Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So what happens to their kids? Do they not inherent the poor-jaw? Well sure, if you’re too cheap to spring for the gene-splice package. Taking the OP’s observation as correct (which nobody seems eager to do), I’ll add “bruxism” to the WAG collection, at least in adults. Being poor is stressful, so you take it out on your teeth at night. A meth epidemic probably doesn’t help, either. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/64 "2012-04-17T21:36:30Z")
> [@Crab\_Rangoon](#): > > Well - I’ll be. I have a weak chin…and I’m white…I guess I must be trash! Who knew? I guess I should burn those degrees I’ve earned and move out of my middle class house and find me a shack to inhabit. > But…wait a minute! I am of English descent - perhaps that may have just a TEENY bit to do with it. Maybe. Thank God I am from poor brown trash; our men never go bald, we all have great cheek bones, perfect teeth and eyesight…and most importantly, chins to die for. I shall remind my daughter to carefully maintain the gene pool, and never mate with a “chinless wonder”, no matter how regal he may be. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/65 "2012-04-17T21:46:09Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > Sounds like an example of poor profiling to me. O.K., people. This is probably the best joke I’ve seen in the SDMB in, I’d say, six months easily. **Oly** got it in as the very first response- so, no excuses that it got lost in the Thread. 63 Responses follow, and _nobody_ deigns to recognize it. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/66 "2012-04-17T21:46:19Z")
> [@aerodave](#): > > Actually, _Gummo_ was filmed in Xenia, Ohio. :eek: The \*setting \*is Xenia, OH. (Which is not far from you & me. I even remember the tornado. I think I was six years old at the time.) But it was filmed close to Nashville. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/67 "2012-04-17T21:57:41Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The \*setting \*is Xenia, OH. (Which is not far from you & me. I even remember the tornado. I think I was six years old at the time.) But it was filmed close to Nashville. My mistake; you are correct. I always thought it was filmed there as well… I’ll be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/68 "2012-04-17T22:05:21Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > **Oly** got it in as the very first response- so, no excuses that it got lost in the Thread. Are you suggesting **Oly** is markedly slower than the average Doper? At least when I’m being calloused & insulting I try to be open about it. You’re just being sneaky. I’ll bet you have a long thin neck, beady eyes, tiny head, pencil-thin mustache… Sneaky. ---
**Author:** ![Crab\_Rangoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Crab\_Rangoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crab_Rangoon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/69 "2012-04-17T23:02:47Z")
> [@florez](#): > > I shall remind my daughter to carefully maintain the gene pool, and never mate with a “chinless wonder”, no matter how regal he may be. Now hold on there a minute. What is this “Gene Pool” you’re talking about? I think I heard someone talk about that back a few years - seems they think that facial features like chin size, cheek bone structure and forehead shape is determined by these so-called “genes” that live inside of our cells. Crazy, huh? I know - obviously those smarty-pants “scientists” don’t know that chin shape and facial features depend on how poor you are and/or how smart you are. I’m formulating the brain/chin ratio for future use in weeding out applicants for hiring at my firm. I may have to incorporate some additional factors, maybe the inverse forehead slope factor and something to do with the front teeth… ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/70 "2012-04-18T02:03:50Z")
The facial bones are like any other bones in the body. If there’s not enough calcium and vitamin D in the diet, then they’re likely to be underdeveloped. Dr. Weston Price found that traditional tribes all went from having straighter teeth, good cheekbones, large jaws, wider skulls, and wider ribcages to the opposite when they switched from their traditional diets. He also found a MUCH higher incidence of dental problems as well, especially cavities. He tested the nutritional content of their traditional diets, and found them many times higher in vitamins and minerals than the RDA of those nutrients, as well as much higher in nutrients than the average American diet. I personally have spent a lot of time with the Guaymi Indianos in Costa Rica, and they all have beautiful cheekbones, straight white teeth, and wide ribcages. This is only true for the Guaymi who still live in the jungle. All the other people in the country seem to have crooked teeth, etc., just like Americans. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/71 "2012-04-18T03:52:03Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Dr. Weston Price found that traditional tribes all went from having straighter teeth, good cheekbones, large jaws, wider skulls, and wider ribcages to the opposite when they switched from their traditional diets. He also found a MUCH higher incidence of dental problems as well, especially cavities. Dr. Weston Price isn’t very highly regarded as a [nutritionist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Price#Nutrition), ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/72 "2012-04-18T04:54:02Z")
My chin was poorly defined so I went and got myself a second one. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/73 "2012-04-18T12:59:08Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > This is only true for the Guaymi who still live in the jungle. All the other people in the country seem to have crooked teeth, etc., just like Americans. Inbreeding isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Just as it can keep bad genes in, it can keep bad genes out. I put it to you that Americans and urban Guaymi have access to a wider gene pool that is filtered by viability in the modern world (which has looser physical standards of excellence) whereas the jungle folk very much need as close to a healthy, self-maintaining physique as possible. And yeah, civilized humans eat way too much sugar and that plays hell with the teefs. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/74 "2012-04-18T13:20:39Z")
I hate the “my experiences are radically different than thoseof the OP” contrarian posts, but … one of my friends once described a phenomenon he called “Ozark chin”, where rural, working-class women tended to have very pronounced, pointy, almost witch-like chins. I’ve seen this myself a lot in Appalachia The women that had such protruding, pointy chins tended to be quite thin and “grizzled”, for lack of a better term. Could this be a genetic trait of Ulster Scots? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/75 "2012-04-18T13:26:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Well, congratulations, you also have the nose that’s common among rich Swedish people 🙂 I suspect my Swedish ancestors weren’t rich. I don’t think rich people were generally leaving Sweden in the late nineteenth century for the US. I suspect that was something you did if you were having trouble making a living in Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/76 "2012-04-18T13:56:04Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Dr. Weston Price isn’t very highly regarded as a [nutritionist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Price#Nutrition), Weak. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/77 "2012-04-19T02:09:15Z")
I’m not that interested in what Dr. Price’s reputation is on Wikipedia. It’s well-known that Wikipedia is not exactly the best source on hotly-debated subjects. Generally the conventional knowledge crowd wins out, even when their information is incomplete and biased. As for calling the Guaymi inbred, they’re no more inbred than any other Native American group. Genetics do have an effect on the crookedness of teeth, in two ways: 1. It’s possible to inherit a smaller jaw and larger teeth. The Australian aborigines are known for having larger jaws and especially teeth, as an example. Someone of mixed ancestry inheriting large tooth size and small jaw size definitely can increase the odds of crooked teeth. 2. It’s also possible to inherit the ability to absorb/use/make specific nutrients very well or NOT well. This can, in some cases, have a somewhat sizable effect on how well you build bone. Specifically calcium, vitamin D, and vitamin K-2 all have a major effect on jaw size and width, as well as the entire skull and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the skeleton. However, anyone who has travelled extensively to areas where people eat their traditional diets can see the differences in skull/jaw/face formation, as well as straightness of teeth. The Eskimos are a _perfect_ example. Eskimos living in the more “urban” (not much in Alaska is really urban) areas of Alaska, eating the white man’s food, have terrible teeth and general health. Their dental problems are legendary. Ron White, the comedian, accidentally pissed them off by making cracks about their terrible teeth a few years ago, during a show he did there. The Eskimos living in the remote northern areas of Alaska who are still eating the traditional meat/fat/fish diet have beautiful straight teeth, very few cavities, and better health in general. Really, seriously, I’ve studied this issue for close to 10 years now. I don’t advertise my knowledge, because it’s pointless to try to get people to change their diets, but I know my stuff when it comes to this. You can eat a terrible diet because you WANT to, but don’t try to tell me it doesn’t help cause crooked teeth. ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/78 "2012-04-19T04:03:55Z")
Eskimos? Are you talking about specific people who live in a certain part of North America or all of the Native Americans who settled a great expanse of sub-Arctic America before their ancestors eventually settled all the way down to the tip of South America? I don’t mean to get all PC on you, but Eskimo is not exactly Yupik, Aleut or Inuit, although it sometimes includes all. All of these peoples are widely distributed and had their own cultures and customs and were widely distributed over thousands and thousands of miles. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/79 "2012-04-19T04:33:26Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I hate the “my experiences are radically different than thoseof the OP” contrarian posts, but … one of my friends once described a phenomenon he called “Ozark chin”, where rural, working-class women tended to have very pronounced, pointy, almost witch-like chins. I’ve seen this myself a lot in Appalachia The women that had such protruding, pointy chins tended to be quite thin and “grizzled”, for lack of a better term. Could this be a genetic trait of Ulster Scots? Edentulism or loss of teeth [produces changes in the facial structure](http://www.drgasser.com/img/smp_toothloss.PDF), including the so-called “witches’ chin”. I imagine poor rural women are more likely than average to have tooth loss. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005/80 "2012-04-20T03:06:20Z")
> [@oliversarmy](#): > > Eskimos? Are you talking about specific people who live in a certain part of North America or all of the Native Americans who settled a great expanse of sub-Arctic America before their ancestors eventually settled all the way down to the tip of South America? > > I don’t mean to get all PC on you, but Eskimo is not exactly Yupik, Aleut or Inuit, although it sometimes includes all. All of these peoples are widely distributed and had their own cultures and customs and were widely distributed over thousands and thousands of miles. Any native group, anywhere, eating their traditional diet, has much better jaw/face/skull/skeleton formation than after they switch to the white man’s food. There are plenty of off-the-beaten-track places in Africa, North/South/Central America, and Asia where people eat their traditional diets still, or something very close to it. I was just using Alaskan Natives as a well-studied example. It’s actually easier to get to some of the places in the rain forests of Costa Rica where the Guaymi live than to traditional Eskimo groups, if you wanted to test the truth of what I’m saying, but the Eskimos are much better-studied. For that matter, it’s easier to get to places in Africa where a traditional diet is eaten, as well. But again, the Alaskan natives are very well-studied, and the people who’ve studied them mostly write and speak English, so the research is easier to find. …not that I’m expecting anyone here to actually travel anywhere to test what I’m saying. heh. You’re all armchair theorists. And that’s OK, I just don’t think I owe armchair theorists much in terms of my time and energy. I actually DID the research, the travelling, and I have eaten a traditional-style mostly-raw diet for about 12 years now. I know whereof I speak, and I have little patience on this topic for armchair theorists who assume they have something to teach ME, and can’t handle facts that upset their worldview. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-lower-class-white-people-have-poorly-defined-chins/619005.md?page=5)