Why do so many native English speakers believe that English is the hardest language in the world?

a lot of the instances in which people say that this and this language is easy to learn, what they mean is that it is easy to learn for people speaking a similar language with a similar vocabulary. For a Spanish speaker, Italian or Portuguese or even French will be infinitely less hard to master than English, and similarly, anyone speaking a Slavic language can often understand other Slavic languages with very, very little effort, while English is going to be fairly hard for them.

That said, English, with its lack of complex grammatical rules, may have a simpler structure than other languages - but that in and of it self does not make it ‘the easiest language’ for everyone. At the same time, this does mean that it’s probably, overall, not the hardest language - if speakers of all 6000 or something languages ranked all the other 5999 languages in terms of how hard it would be to learn them, I doubt English would end up in the top 100 very often.

Still, though, I’ve heard many native speakers of many languages claim that their’s was the most difficult and complex and that no one could ever learn it - both Russians and Czechs have a penchant for this kind of insane claims, and they’ll often tell me this in English that is far more broken than either my Russian or my Czech, if they even speak any language other than their own, which often is not the case. I must admit that this irks me - why make stupid claims about how tough and impossible it is to learn your stupid language when you obviously have not succeeded in learning any second language and I have learned yours?

Wow, I never considered that. And this holds true across all continents?

OTOH, there’s another way languages can differ: whether there’s a lot of poets and other literary assholes trying to fancy up the language. Literary Latin was considerably more complex than the normal, everyday kind. Other languages have undergone this fancying-up too. Chinese used to have multiple syllables, but most words were reduced to just one, making it a lot more complex in that way. (Interestingly, homonyms/homophones was the first reason the OP listed for English being complex.)

Which part precisely is the utter nonsense IYO? Are you concurring that they believe non-natives can’t master the language, or questioning the hemisphere explanation?

I’ve always suspected that people who make this claim are largely monolingual and want to feel smrt. But maybe that’s just my cynicism showing through…

I think the English learning curve is a bit different from that of most Indo-European languages, though. At first glance the grammar seems shockingly simple because of the collapsed verbal/case inflections, and then once you’ve learned the basics of the language it turns out all the complexity lost from those areas is made up for in the the form of phrasal verbs and compound cases and what have you, so English’s learning curve is probably more of an S curve than is typical and the case could be made for English being both “easy” and “hard”.

I spent a year and a half attempting to learn Chinese at a military-run language school out west a while back. They ranked all the different languages on a difficulty scale from 1 to 5, with 1 being the easiest langauges (with the shortest course times), and 5 being the hardest languages. Spanish and French were 1 level courses, German was a 2 level, IIRC, Russian was a hard 3 level, and Chinese, Arabic, and Korean were both 4 levels. Supposedly, English was the only 5 level language on the rating scale.

I have no idea on what basis they ranked these languages, and some of us did suspect that the “English is the only 5 level language” thing was to shame us into studying harder to learn our assigned languages which were supposedly easier than the English we spoke every day.

Given how they’re ranked in order of difficulty for English speakers, English would really be the only level 0 language.

No, French was.

Rubbish. As another poster pointed out, the writing system of a language is not actually that language. Orthography is not a linguistic issue. Not to mention the simple fact that one could–and often does–write differently for different purposes, say a letter to a friend as opposed to a term paper.

An anecdote:

My old high school English teacher was once talking about teaching adult ESL speakers the subtlety of the language. Specifically, the lesson was on the “ough” letter combination, a combination so ridiculous that it has its own lengthy Wikipedia entry: Ough (orthography) - Wikipedia

Consider, for example, the “uff” of “enough”, versus the “oo” of “through”.

One student reportedly quipped “I’ve had enoo, I’m thruff with this language!”

At first I thought that Arabic would be very hard to learn, and I enjoyed learning colloquial Arabic much more than classical Arabic. The more I learned, the more I wanted to learn.

When it came to writing Arabic, I found that I wrote it much the same way that I spoke it. (So what, if I don’t write like a scholar.)

Swapping some English language coaching for some Arabic coaching really helped too, and it made learning a lot more fun.

Face to face, with native speakers (and a few well chosen books) was the best way for me to learn to speak another language.
My Arabic is a little rusty now, but I still have a lot of good feelings for the language.

Well, IANA Linguist but I understand it’s true for Europe, at least in some cases:

Basque was pretty much unused in written form until the birth of the modern concept of Nation, in the XIX century. Previously, documents written in Basque were few, far between and intended for the writer himself (or his descendants): notes in the margins of a book (the same book which holds the first written words in Spanish), tombstones, pieces of family records. They weren’t written in order to be able to communicate with people far away: Latin, Spanish or French would be the languages used for this other purpose. And if someone who only spoke Basque needed to send a letter? He’d go to the local scribe, who’d write the message down after translating it to the current trade language and send it, either to its destination or to another scribe who’d translate to the recipient’s local dialect.
Basque “old” dialects can be mutually unintelligible, it is common for speakers of two different dialects to need to switch to Spanish, French or to the invented official dialect (Batua, “unified”).

During the Roman empire, written documents travelled all over their territory. There were dialectal variations, but any official document would be written in “standard Latin.” The Empire breaks down, and there’s a period during which people barely write, much less write to each other; middle class people who under the Empire would have been literate stop being so; in many places, writing becomes the despised task of people in skirts (monks and women). That period between the crumbling of the Western Roman Empire and the end of the “barbarian invasions” sees what had been dialects of Latin become the first forms of current Romance languages.

I’m simplifying; I know that for example in Spain people from the kingdoms of Leon and Aragon wrote about the Navarrese being “a bunch of barbarians who write in Romance language instead of Latin” during the first two centuries of the Reconquista or so; thing is, that means “Romance language” (proto-Spanish, in this case) already existed by then and was recognized as distinctly different from Latin. Many of the Romance languages which were born during that period diminished greatly or dissapeared as national boundaries got reestablished, laws started being issued in Romance languages and writing became widespread again (between Gutenberg and the first newspapers, “posh” people might stick to the dialect of the capital and spurn their “provincial” servants, land-leasers or colleagues, as reflected for example in many Spanish literary works of those centuries; the advent of newspapers spread that “poshness” around). That doesn’t mean people from Cádiz, Pamplona, Montevideo and Cartagena de Indias all speak the same, but they can find a common ground much more easily than if they weren’t used to reading the same books and magazines… and even more, nowadays: watching the same TV programs and movies (with the caveat that American movies and programs usually get double dubbing, for Latin America and for Spain).

If you are trying to communicate with someone and you’re conscious that there is dialectal variation between you, you choose the word that you think is more widespread. When both parts perform that act of courtesy, what happens is that the more-widespread word gets more and more usage, while the local variations shrink.

Of course the writing system is part of a language. How could it not be? Languages do not exist only in their spoken form. And how does the last proposition affect that? You can speak differently for different purposes, e.g., chatting with friends versus speaking formally at a conference. Written language is just as much language as oral language.

lobotomyboy62 writes:

> Which part precisely is the utter nonsense IYO? Are you concurring that they
> believe non-natives can’t master the language, or questioning the hemisphere
> explanation?

Both parts. It’s wrong that non-natives can’t master the language, and it’s wrong that the Japanese use different parts of the brain for language. These are both examples of the silly urban legends that the Japanese have.

Raguleader, the military language school ranks the languages in terms of how hard it is to learn as an adult for a native English speaker. It has nothing to do with the difficulty for a child to learn the language as they grow up. Incidentally, I mentioned the military language school (and it, or other such U.S. government schools, are attended by civilians too) back in my first post in this thread. They have a very practical reason to rank the difficulty of languages. They have to teach their employees languages they don’t know very quickly, and they need to know just how long it would take.

JKellyMap, I’ve seen something like that claimed in other books of John McWhorter’s. He’s not a nutcase by any means. He taught in one of the top linguistics departments in the U.S. He has this theory that some languages can be considered slightly simpler than others, and he claims to know why this is true. I haven’t read this theory elsewhere, so I don’t know if it’s generally accepted. He claims that a language spoken only by a tiny group (like, say, a language only spoken by a tribe in New Guinea with little contact with anyone else) tends to have more complexity than a language which has contact with many other groups and is frequently learned by adults who grew up speaking other languages (like, say, English). The distinction is the amount of contact with other languages, not writing, although in general languages that are written tend to have more contact with other languages. McWhorter’s theory is that languages with contact with other languages tend to have some of the complexities knocked off because the people who learn it as adults simplify the language a bit.

I’m afraid you misunderstood my point. You are quite right that the writing system of a language is in many ways quite different than its spoken counterpart(s). But my point was simply the EXISTENCE of a widely-used written version may tend to simplify some of the spoken language toward a particular standard.

Wendell Wagner, thanks for the correction. It is good to acknowledge that not all linguists agree with MCwhorter as to how generally prevalent partial creolization (one possible result of from contact between speakers of large-area languages) is as an explanation of differences in overall complexity. In any case, many linguists agree that “complexity” is difficult or perhaps impossible to quantify over a system as multilayered as a language, and so they much more often emphasize my other main point: that, usually, one language is as complex as another (pidgins aside, of course – but these have no speakers of it as a first language, so let’s ignore them for this). Like with many things which linguists tend to agree on, few non-linguists would think that’s true. As many postings in this thread attest to, most of us (wrongly) assume that certain widely-spoken (and written) languages are inherently more “complex” (not to mention “difficult”) than others.

Thank you - this is the book I refered to above but couldn’t recall the name of. Good book.

I taught English at an intensive English language conversation camp for high school students a couple years ago. My kids were from different parts of Europe and Central Asia, but the large majority were from the Balkans (esp. Bulgaria, Serbia, and Montenegro). Not surprisingly for kids who would come to this kind of camp, most of them had studied a few languages, and when I told some of them that lots of English speakers thought that English was a very difficult language, they were highly amused.

OTOH, English does have truly awful orthography. I feel pretty bad for people learning to read and write it.

As a Chinese who took English as a second language since young (3 or 4 years old), I can attest to that while writing and speaking English is easy, getting it right is a different thing all together, and even after being at it for so long, I still get tenses wrong now and then.

The thing with English is that there are so many forms and tenses when compared to Chinese. Chinese does not have any tenses; there are three for English. And you have the different spelling for each of the tenses - Chinese characters don’t change depending on tenses. Most of my primary school English errors were “John had use the hair-dryer” and similar stuff. There are no consistent rules for tenses - sometimes, you add ‘ed’, sometimes it becomes a different word all together (One common ‘broken English’ in Singapore is “I understooded” and “I have ated already”)

So yah, from my perspective, English is one heck to learn to be used correctly. Chinese? Easy to formulate what you want to say, but writing it is extremely difficult, and recognizing characters has no consistent system too.

Yeah, but thing is, CrazyChop, if English verbal tenses were difficult for you… imagine Spanish or French, which have over a dozen. Different languages just happen to have different difficult points - and which are the difficult points changes for different learners and for different reasons.

You find English verbs difficult because they have too many tenses. I find them difficult because they don’t have enough :slight_smile:

I hated that too. My whole class seemed to agree, which was when our French teacher gave us a twist on the thread title. That it wasn’t the English who complained that English was the hardest language to pick up, but everyone else. Everyone else being those who complained about the lack of hard rules on the use of the language.

To me, Asian languages such as the various types of Chinese would be so much harder to pick up. One spelling of a word, a myriad of different pronunciations, hilarity ensues. At least, that’s the way it’s been touted to me.

Perhaps they read the Internet.