# Why do so many of the people who identify as White have a hard time seeing the racism around them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716 "2019-03-29T17:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/321 "2019-04-12T18:05:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t think so, or it wouldn’t generate so much defensive pushback against concepts such as “white fragility” in discussions of racism. You’ll have to make the connection explicit because I’m not seeing how this is related to your previous comment. I think the concept of white fragility gets pushback because it’s stupid and racist. If Asian people are touchy about the topic of persistent racism, and I label that, “asian stupidity”, that’s going to get pushback too and it has nothing to do with historical context. It would get pushback because it’s stupid and racist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/322 "2019-04-12T18:10:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think the concept of white fragility gets pushback because it’s stupid and racist. Huh, and just a second ago you were saying it was “meaningless”. I don’t think it’s either meaningless **or** “stupid and racist”. What I think it is is a way of describing a specific—and historically contingent—vulnerability that white people in our society tend to develop due to our socially privileged position in dealing with issues of race. As I quoted from my cite back in [post #7](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21564161&postcount=7), > [@](#): > > In more than twenty years of running diversity-training and cultural-competency workshops for American companies, the academic and educator Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry. In 2011, DiAngelo coined the term “white fragility” to describe the disbelieving defensiveness that white people exhibit when their ideas about race and racism are challenged—and particularly when they feel implicated in white supremacy. […] > > She argues that our largely segregated society is set up to insulate whites from racial discomfort […] Unused to unpleasantness (more than unused to it—racial hierarchies tell white people that they are entitled to peace and deference), they lack the “racial stamina” to engage in difficult conversations. […] ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/323 "2019-04-12T18:17:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Huh, and just a second ago you were saying it was “meaningless”. I don’t think it’s either meaningless **or** “stupid and racist”. Saying that a group is sensitive about a sensitive topic is meaningless standing alone. That’s why I asked you to make the connection explicit. I am not sure if you are saying this sensitivity is particularized to a certain racial group because of their race and have labeled it in a derogatory fashion. Are you? Because your post #316 did not contain the term, “white fragility”. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/324 "2019-04-12T18:48:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I reject your definition of racism. It seems to ignore the fact that a person of color can act in racist ways, or actually be racist themselves. I acknowledge that power as a necessary component of racism is a valid definition, but it’s not the only one. I agree that it’s not the only one (I paraphrased an online dictionary, fwiw), but it’s the most valid. There’s a difference between a white guy who’s racist and refuses to let black people rent out his vacant apartment and a black guy who doesn’t like white people because he’s tired of living with the legacy of anti-black racism. They come from two entirely different places. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/325 "2019-04-12T18:54:40Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > We are a nation of individuals, definitionally the nation is made up of individuals. If the vast majority of individuals in the nation loved mustard and hated ketchup then there is no way that the nation could be described as loving ketchup and hating mustard. You seem to be anthropomorphizing races. Not sure what your point is here. > [@puddleglum](#): > > In the 19th century it is obvious that certain white people, slaveowners, had power over certain black people, slaves. That white paddyrollers had power over slaves who were trying to escape or move freely. That white bosses had power over black employees, etc. Glad you acknowledge that but it didn’t end there - just so we’re clear. What does the Jim Crow era mean to you? What about black codes? Why didn’t professional sports begin to integrate even outside the American South until the late 1940s? Why didn’t the military integrate - again, outside the South as well - until 1948? Why did we still need special acts of congress in 1965, some 100 years after the end of the Civil War? If America had been an egalitarian and colorblind society of individuals all along, then how do you explain that history? > [@puddleglum](#): > > At least 99% of white people will never meet a Fortune 500 CEO, do you really think a white person could get a meeting with a CEO just because they are white? That is delusional. How does have close access to a CEO provide one with power? What on earth are you trying to demonstrate here? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/326 "2019-04-12T19:10:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > At least 99% of white people will never meet a Fortune 500 CEO, do you really think a white person could get a meeting with a CEO just because they are white? That is delusional. How does have close access to a CEO provide one with power? What you are talking about is delusional because you are not taking the time to listen to the criticism of non-diverse workplaces. Instead, you seem to jump to conclusions like, “Well I watched that SNL where Eddie Murphy dressed up like a white man, and he got on a city bus and a white people party broke out when the black guy left, and then he went to a bank and a white banker gave him all the money he wanted; that’s never happened to me so racism doesn’t exist anymore!” Critics of exclusively white boardrooms aren’t saying that CEOs are going to pick some random white guy off the street and make him COO. They are saying that exclusively white boardrooms will tend to perpetuate barriers that keep the boardrooms from diversifying. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/327 "2019-04-12T19:14:08Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Not sure what your point is here. > > Glad you acknowledge that but it didn’t end there - just so we’re clear. What does the Jim Crow era mean to you? What about black codes? Why didn’t professional sports begin to integrate even outside the American South until the late 1940s? Why didn’t the military integrate - again, outside the South as well - until 1948? Why did we still need special acts of congress in 1965, some 100 years after the end of the Civil War? If America had been an egalitarian and colorblind society of individuals all along, then how do you explain that history? No one has claimed that America was an egalitarian or colorblind society all along. America was a racist society for much of its history. We needed those things because the vast majority of white voters were racist for long periods of time. They voted for racist rules and thus society was racist. Over time, fewer people were racist, the civil rights movement won, and people changed. As they changed society changed with them, and is no longer racist. You are still eliding the question. What power do white people have over black people that enables only white people to be racist? Racism actually has nothing to do with power, anyone from any race can be racist, and it does not matter if the person has any power or not. Racism is scorn for other people because of their race and can afflict the lowliest or the mightiest. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/328 "2019-04-12T19:16:31Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I agree that it’s not the only one (I paraphrased an online dictionary, fwiw), but it’s the most valid. There’s a difference between a white guy who’s racist and refuses to let black people rent out his vacant apartment and a black guy who doesn’t like white people because he’s tired of living with the legacy of anti-black racism. They come from two entirely different places. I don’t think it’s the most valid. You’ve also switched the example making it less comparable. Is there a difference between a white guy who is racist and refuses to let black people rent out his vacant apartment and a black guy who is racist and refuses to let white people rent out his vacant apartment? That may not work because you haven’t acknowledged whether you believe a non-white person can be racist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/329 "2019-04-12T19:26:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There’s a difference between a white guy who’s racist and refuses to let black people rent out his vacant apartment and a black guy who doesn’t like white people because he’s tired of living with the legacy of anti-black racism. They come from two entirely different places. Maybe they are coming from different places, but they end up in the same one. The black guy doesn’t like individual white people because other white people presumably did something to him. The white guy won’t rent his apartment to black people because the last tenant was black and trashed the place. In both cases, people are being blamed for things they didn’t do because of the color of their skin. If you want to call one “racism” and the other “bigotry”, go ahead, but I don’t see how that helps anything. How is it better if the black guy does it because there are only three black CEOs? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/330 "2019-04-12T19:32:50Z")
Imagine if there were only 3 white CEOs. Would you feel exactly the same about the issue as you do now? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/331 "2019-04-12T20:07:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I am not sure if you are saying this sensitivity is particularized to a certain racial group because of their race and have labeled it in a derogatory fashion. Well, I don’t think I’d agree that the term “white fragility” is “derogatory” of white people, any more than I would describe terms like “toxic masculinity” or “toxic femininity” or “fragile masculinity” as “derogatory” of men or women. That is, the particular mindset thus referenced may be a bad thing in some ways, but that doesn’t mean that the people afflicted by it are necessarily bad people. To be clear, I am indeed following Robin DiAngelo, the source I quoted in the cite, in using the term “white fragility” to refer to the heightened emotional vulnerability and defensiveness that many white people experience when discussing racial issues. To be clear some more, I am definitely not intending that term to be derogatory towards white people themselves (ourselves). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/332 "2019-04-12T20:14:24Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Imagine if there were only 3 white CEOs. > > Would you feel exactly the same about the issue as you do now? What difference does it make - I’m not getting the apartment either way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/333 "2019-04-12T20:21:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What difference does it make - I’m not getting the apartment either way. > > Regards, > Shodan If you don’t see the difference, then I can’t make you see it. It really is unfortunate. We could make such progress as a society and as a world if enough people had the ability to see things from other perspectives. Lack of empathy is preventing humanity from improving ourselves. It is truly tragic the amount of potential we are squandering. Maybe after I’m long gone our grandkids will finally be able to figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/334 "2019-04-12T20:28:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Racism actually has nothing to do with power, anyone from any race can be racist, and it does not matter if the person has any power or not. Racism is scorn for other people because of their race and can afflict the lowliest or the mightiest. Sure, in the same technical way that a gun without bullets is still a gun. I’m not really worried about the number of guns floating around our cities that are never loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/335 "2019-04-12T20:29:32Z")
Or maybe there _is_ no difference between “I don’t like you because you are black” and “I don’t like you because you are white”. Disagreeing with which one shows a lack of empathy? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/336 "2019-04-12T20:32:58Z")
It’s lack of empathy to discount the life experiences of those that aren’t like you. It’s wrong for anyone to be racist against any group. It’s also wrong to completely ignore history and to refuse to listen to anyone else’s experiences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716.md?page=16)