# Why do so many of the people who identify as White have a hard time seeing the racism around them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716 "2019-03-29T17:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/141 "2019-04-03T00:57:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Lets pretend your premise is true, now what? In the urban school systems, the teacher are mostly black, the principals are mostly black, the school boards are mostly black, and the politicians are mostly black. > Is the problem the white teachers that devoted their lives to teaching minority students? > Did the white students moving away 50 years ago so damage urban schools that they are impossible to improve? > Is the only answer to wait for racism to die down and the white students to move back, or can the black people who are in charge of these schools improve them now? The problem is that by moving away, they continued to segregate schools; it’s just more of a de facto segregation than one upheld by local custom. Moreover, by moving away from black communities, whites no longer had an interest in what happened to black communities, and not just the schools but everything else that happens in a black community. That’s what segregation allows white people to do to black people: it allows people to take away jobs, take away educators, take away competent administrators, take away tax dollars, and it leaves frustrated and poor black residents with comparatively much less opportunity and much less hope - and it allows white people the opportunity to ignore it all, because their children now are ‘safe’ from ‘those’ schools and ‘those’ people. Or at least safe until one of those who, out of anger and hopelessness, turned to a life of crime ends up pulling a gun on them, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/142 "2019-04-03T07:04:08Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Moreover, by moving away from black communities, whites no longer had an interest in what happened to black communities, and not just the schools but everything else that happens in a black community. When I move from an area, I pretty much lose interest in that area otherwise why move? If white people are moving because of black people being there, then it is even more obvious why they wouldn’t care about any black community, let alone the one just left. > [@](#): > > That’s what segregation allows white people to do to black people: it allows people to take away jobs, take away educators, take away competent administrators, take away tax dollars, and it leaves frustrated and poor black residents with comparatively much less opportunity and much less hope - and it allows white people the opportunity to ignore it all, because their children now are ‘safe’ from ‘those’ schools and ‘those’ people. Forcing someone to move away from you is segregation. Preventing them from moving near you is, too. Moving away from someone isn’t. I’m getting a distinct ‘White Man’s Burden’ from your post. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/143 "2019-04-03T08:10:22Z")
**monstro** - I am on the same page as you in that I absolutely don’t think tightening purse strings for struggling schools/students is at all a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/144 "2019-04-03T12:09:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s illegal to speak out against the government, for one. To be fair, it’s not enforced, but there’s nothing to prevent them from switching around on that. I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/145 "2019-04-03T13:02:29Z")
I don’t identify as White or white, and try to look at every person as an individual and not a faceless Group member. Not always easy, but often rewarding. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/146 "2019-04-03T14:51:41Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Do you have some citations that this was an actual policy of the Obama administration? He’s probably talking about [this](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201401-title-vi.html). Similar [thinking underlies policy at the local level](http://www.startribune.com/counterpoint-edina-schools-why-it-s-crucial-to-unlearn-racism/450148033/) as well - it isn’t just the Obama administration. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/147 "2019-04-03T16:09:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t identify as White or white, and try to look at every person as an individual and not a faceless Group member. > > Not always easy, but often rewarding. You may find it interesting to read [this article](https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism), which was quoted before: > [@](#): > > In more than twenty years of running diversity-training and cultural-competency workshops for American companies, the academic and educator Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” . . . “Color blindness,” the argument that race shouldn’t matter, prevents us from grappling with how it does. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/148 "2019-04-03T18:36:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In my personal experience, that mindset is alive and well, it’s just gotten new rhetoric. Speaking just of that kind of personal, day-to-day individual racism (as opposed to institutional/systemic racism, which is also alive and well), Birtherism could only survive and thrive for years (as it did) if there were millions of folks inclined to believe the worst about a prominent black person despite zero evidence for it. I hear terrible, disgusting things about the personal character and hygiene of immigrants and Muslims multiple times per month in my office. In the Navy, I served with a lot of courageous and patriotic young men, many of whom expressed disgust at even the possibility of interracial dating. The President praises white supremacist marchers as “good people”, and tens of millions continue to support him. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard white acquaintances say “I’m not racist, but…” followed by something racist, I’d be rich. > > Personal racism is alive and well. It’s just different than it was in the mid 20th century. Most who traffic and engage in it would swear on a stack of bibles that they aren’t racist at all. Birtherism is just one of many crazy conspiracy theories. I am old enough to remember when Bush was president and people thought he was behind or aware of 9-11, that he had the military blow up the levies in New Orleans, that he started the Iraq war to enrich Halliburton, or had Diebold mess with election results in Ohio. Obama was a black man of very modest accomplishment who was twice voted president easily. Yet people ignore that to say that this is a racist country because he was the focus of crazy theories just like every other president. The President never said white supremacists as “good people” as a simple google search will show, yet because he is of the other party many people such as yourself will believe it. Is that evidence you hate white people? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/149 "2019-04-03T18:40:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You may find it interesting to read [this article](https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism), which was quoted before: The idea that racism is anathema is so ingrained in our society, that white people are scared of saying something that could be taken as racist and fired or shunned. This is evidence that racism is ubiquitous and powerful in our society. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/150 "2019-04-03T18:43:38Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Birtherism is just one of many crazy conspiracy theories. The one founded on racism, with no factual basis, that had the support of tens of millions of Americans, and was the only thing that set Trump apart from the other Republicans at the start of the primary. > [@](#): > > I am old enough to remember when Bush was president and people thought he was behind or aware of 9-11, that he had the military blow up the levies in New Orleans, that he started the Iraq war to enrich Halliburton, or had Diebold mess with election results in Ohio. No successful presidential candidate ever rode to success (or anywhere close to success) on these theories. > [@](#): > > Obama was a black man of very modest accomplishment who was twice voted president easily. Yet people ignore that to say that this is a racist country because he was the focus of crazy theories just like every other president. I don’t see what they have to do with each other. I honestly don’t see what a black President and whether or not “this is a racist country” has to do with each other. Racism is an extremely complex phenomenon. The act of voting for (or loving, or marrying, or fathering/mothering, etc.) a black person barely provides any indication as to whether a person is racist or has racist beliefs. All that tells us is that they don’t have murderous hatred/disdain for every single black person alive. There are millions of racists who don’t hate or disdain every single black person on Earth. > [@](#): > > The President never said white supremacists as “good people” as a simple google search will show, yet because he is of the other party many people such as yourself will believe it. Is that evidence you hate white people? I saw it on TV – he praised “both sides” of the Charlottesville marchers, and one side was white supremacists (or those who are absolutely fine with knowingly marching alongside large groups of white supremacists… in other words, white supremacists). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/151 "2019-04-03T18:47:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Birtherism could only survive and thrive for years (as it did) if there were millions of folks inclined to believe the worst about a prominent black person despite zero evidence for it. Birtherism wasn’t just because Obama was black, it was also because his childhood involved a significant amount of travel and residency abroad (Indonesia, etc.) and also because his father was directly born in Kenya. You wouldn’t see the same Birtherism skepticism about another black candidate such as, say, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/152 "2019-04-03T18:52:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Birtherism wasn’t just because Obama was black, it was also because his childhood involved a significant amount of travel and residency abroad (Indonesia, etc.) and also because his father was directly born in Kenya. You wouldn’t see the same Birtherism skepticism about another black candidate such as, say, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. There didn’t seem to be much outcry about Ted Cruz, who WAS born in Canada and whose father was directly born in Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/153 "2019-04-03T18:53:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Birtherism wasn’t just because Obama was black, it was also because his childhood involved a significant amount of travel and residency abroad (Indonesia, etc.) and also because his father was directly born in Kenya. You wouldn’t see the same Birtherism skepticism about another black candidate such as, say, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. That may be why the fabulists came up with this particular evidence-free conspiracy theory. But that’s not why tens of millions of Americans latched onto it. If some other black candidate had become popular enough to be nominated by the Democratic party for Prez, then some other evidence-free, deligitimizing conspiracy theory would have been generated, and similarly latched onto by those tens of millions of racist or racist-leaning Americans. There’s a decent chance we’ll test my hypothesis in the coming election – if Harris or Booker are nominated, I predict that some similarly evidence-free deligitimizing conspiracy theory will pop up, and latched onto by tens of millions. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/154 "2019-04-03T18:54:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > There didn’t seem to be much outcry about Ted Cruz, who WAS born in Canada and whose father was directly born in Cuba. Because, to the R’s, he was their guy. (Well, for R’s who like Cruz.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/155 "2019-04-03T18:57:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Birtherism wasn’t just because Obama was black, it was also because his childhood involved a significant amount of travel and residency abroad (Indonesia, etc.) and also because his father was directly born in Kenya. You wouldn’t see the same Birtherism skepticism about another black candidate such as, say, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. Birtherism was because he was black, and that was the strongest tool they had to use against that particular black man. If Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson had been the opponent they would have used whatever tool was most effective against _those_ black men. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/156 "2019-04-03T18:58:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You may find it interesting to read [this article](https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism), which was quoted before: I did read the article. Another quote from it - > [@](#): > > DiAngelo sometimes adopts a soothing, conciliatory tone toward white readers, as if she were appeasing a child on the verge of a tantrum. Funny how Diangelo thinks condescension and whitesplaining should work on white people, but not black people. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/157 "2019-04-03T19:15:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Birtherism was because he was black… And because Obama’s father was born Muslim, and because Obama attended a Muslim public school, and because [Obama’s school registration form listed him as Muslim](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/20/chain-email/obama-attended-an-indonesian-public-school/). > [@](#): > > …that was the strongest tool they had to use against that particular black man. We had lots of other stuff as well - that he never held down a full-time job before he became Senator, his association with [terrorists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers)and [crooks](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-rezko/former-obama-fundraiser-rezko-gets-10-year-sentence-idUSTRE7AL22X20111122), etc. There was never any real evidence for Birtherism, but neither was there for Trutherism or Diebold conspiracies or the idea that Reagan conspired to delay the release of the hostages. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/158 "2019-04-03T19:43:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And because Obama’s father was born Muslim, and because Obama attended a Muslim public school, and because [Obama’s school registration form listed him as Muslim](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/20/chain-email/obama-attended-an-indonesian-public-school/). So it wasn’t JUST racism, it was racism and islamophobia? Did I read that correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/159 "2019-04-03T19:49:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you want me to believe that racism is “ubiquitous” and a “crippling disease” and you want me to “do something about it”, then the burden of proof is on you. > [@puddleglum](#): > > My grandmother is dead and her mindset about race is too, why should we pretend otherwise? > [@Shodan](#): > > Incidents of racism do occur. Those incidents are heavily publicized and sensationalized. I am disappointed but not surprised that none of the posters claiming that Racism doesn’t exist or is a thing of the past or only exists in issolated cases bothered to respond to Gigobusters link. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Forgot the link: > > [How Black Americans See Discrimination : Code Switch : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/10/25/559015355/how-black-americans-see-discrimination) > > How Black Americans See Discrimination In a [controlled study](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/06/17/192730233/for-people-of-color-a-housing-market-partially-hidden-from-view) it was shown that people of color are routinely discriminated against in the housing market. No sensationalized anecdotes, no people with white robes burning crosses, just a day in the life of a black person getting just pushed one or two rungs down on the step ladder. It should also be noted that it is unlikely that there is anything particularly attracts racists to the job of real estate agent. If discrimination is happening there its happening everywhere. The thing is that as others have said low key institutional racism is so ubiquitous that its difficult to see. If you’re a fish you don’t notice the water, and may wonder why this man thrown overboard wearing the concrete shoes seems so complaintive. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think people are born racist. They become that way thru experiences. sometimes that is simply thru a parent or some person in authority filling them with propaganda. Other times it comes from bad experiences with people of another race. Although it should be pointed out that in many cases what constitutes bad experiences with people of another race is subject to [confirmation bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). If a white guy cuts you off in traffic it’s because he happens to be a bad driver. If a black guy cuts you off it’s evidence that blacks are bad drivers. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/160 "2019-04-03T20:05:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We had lots of other stuff as well - that he never held down a full-time job before he became Senator, You mean besides his three years as an associate at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland? > [@](#): > > his association with [terrorists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers) I’m sorry, tell me again how many people died at his hand? ::crickets:: Your use of the magisterial “We” apparently precludes the ability to do basic research. Expectorations, CaptMurdock [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716.md?page=9)