# Why do so many of the people who identify as White have a hard time seeing the racism around them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716 "2019-03-29T17:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/161 "2019-04-03T20:06:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > neither was there for Trutherism or Diebold conspiracies Yes, nothing so blatant as Diebold CEO Walden O’Dell sending a letter to Republicans saying “I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/162 "2019-04-03T20:15:50Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > So it wasn’t JUST racism, it was racism and islamophobia? > > Did I read that correctly? No, you didn’t, or least didn’t understand the point. If Obama had been born in Kenya - he wasn’t, he was born in Hawaii - his mother was five months short of her 19th birthday and therefore Obama might not have been a citizen and would not therefore have been eligible to be President. As **Velocity** says, it wasn’t just because Obama was black. It was just something the nuts came up with to try to keep him from being President. I suppose you could call it Islamophobia, but if a candidate claims to be Christian and born in Hawaii, but is really Muslim and born in Kenya, then that is something voters could legitimately consider when deciding whether or not to vote for him, and if he isn’t eligible to be President, then they shouldn’t be able to vote for him at all. In case you missed, Obama is a Christian and a US citizen, and was eligible to run for President. There’s nothing to the Birtherism stuff - but neither was there anything to the Reagan or Bush conspiracy theories either. Presidential candidates and Presidents have silly things said about them. It isn’t any worse when those things are said about a black President than when said about a white one. It also isn’t any better, because there isn’t any difference. Silly conspiracy theories are silly. Oswald killed Kennedy acting alone, James Earl Ray killed MLK Jr, the WTC towers fell down because Osama bin Laden convinced some people to crash airplanes into them, and the CIA\* is not trying to control your mind with rays from the TV set. Regards, Shodan \*That would be shape shifting lizards from the fourth dimension. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/163 "2019-04-03T20:22:31Z")
Birtherism was a racist ploy by racists to keep a black man out of office. They used this ploy because if they had just said “We can’t have a black man as president” then Trump and all the others couldn’t have gotten behind this movement. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/164 "2019-04-03T20:27:15Z")
Can you name one other crazy conspiracy theory pusher that went on to be elected president, aside from the current one? One of your crazy conspiracy theories is not like the other in that many many many people went along with it and later voted for the person behind it. Enough to make him president. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/165 "2019-04-03T20:56:10Z")
Birtherism wasn’t racism? That is about as believable as the fake quote from Saturday Night Live back when Chevy Chase was doing the news: > [@](#): > > …and then he said “I don’t judge people by the color of their skin…I judge them by the size of their nostrils” . ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/166 "2019-04-03T21:08:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Presidential candidates and Presidents have silly things said about them. It isn’t any worse when those things are said about a black President than when said about a white one. It also isn’t any better, because there isn’t any difference. This reminds me of the common tactic of white people who deny that racism is a problem outside of the relatively few numbers of KKK and neo-Nazis who march in the streets. 1988: “There’s nothing racist about the Willie Horton ad. It could have just as easily been a white criminal in that ad!” Then, years later: “Well, okay, Willie Horton was chosen for the ad in large part because he was black. But those days are over!” 1994: “Just because Newsweek darkened the skin of OJ Simpson on the cover of the magazine doesn’t mean that they were trying to scare the public with a black-er man. I’m sure white people have their skin color tinkered with for these photos all the time!” Then, years later: “Well, okay, OJ Simpson was made to look scarier to white people. But those days are over!” 2019, sadly: “Just because Trump and others accused Obama of being a seekrit Muslim doesn’t mean there is anything racial going on here. It could happen to any presidential candidate!” I predict we will see someone soon tell us that those days of birtherism are behind us. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/167 "2019-04-03T21:38:00Z")
“Yes, Donald Trump was Birther, but he isn’t one anymore! He’s moved on, so why can’t ya’ll just let it go?” - conservatives, probably Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/168 "2019-04-03T22:47:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Funny how Diangelo thinks condescension and whitesplaining should work on white people, but not black people. Not to interrupt your hurt feelings or anything, but white people talking to white people about racism isn’t really “whitesplaining”. A conciliatory, soothing tone is sometimes useful when talking to white people about racism because of the abovementioned “white fragility”: i.e., a lot of white people get really defensive and touchy when the subject of racism is brought up, and try to deflect the discussion in various ways, as mentioned in the article. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/169 "2019-04-03T22:53:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Presidential candidates and Presidents have silly things said about them. It isn’t any worse when those things are said about a black President than when said about a white one. It also isn’t any better, because there isn’t any difference. John McCain was a white US Presidential candidate who was born in Panama. If there “isn’t any difference” on the basis of race, why weren’t there any silly “birtherist” conspiracy theories about his eligibility to be President? Well, because a white American man born outside of the US is considered to be a trustworthy “regular American”, whereas a black American man born within the US to a black foreign Muslim father is considered to be a suspect “other” whose status as a “regular American” is intrinsically far less credible. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/170 "2019-04-04T12:20:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, you didn’t, or least didn’t understand the point. > > If Obama had been born in Kenya - he wasn’t, he was born in Hawaii - his mother was five months short of her 19th birthday and therefore Obama might not have been a citizen and would not therefore have been eligible to be President. As **Velocity** says, it wasn’t just because Obama was black. It was just something the nuts came up with to try to keep him from being President. > > I suppose you could call it Islamophobia, but if a candidate claims to be Christian and born in Hawaii, but is really Muslim and born in Kenya, then that is something voters could legitimately consider when deciding whether or not to vote for him, and if he isn’t eligible to be President, then they shouldn’t be able to vote for him at all. > > In case you missed, Obama is a Christian and a US citizen, and was eligible to run for President. There’s nothing to the Birtherism stuff - but neither was there anything to the Reagan or Bush conspiracy theories either. Presidential candidates and Presidents have silly things said about them. It isn’t any worse when those things are said about a black President than when said about a white one. It also isn’t any better, because there isn’t any difference. Silly conspiracy theories are silly. > > Oswald killed Kennedy acting alone, James Earl Ray killed MLK Jr, the WTC towers fell down because Osama bin Laden convinced some people to crash airplanes into them, and the CIA\* is not trying to control your mind with rays from the TV set. > > Regards, > Shodan > > \*That would be shape shifting lizards from the fourth dimension. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke). Sorry, this still sounds like the birthersim lie was specifically designed to prey on racism and islamophobia in equal measure. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/171 "2019-04-04T12:35:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If a white man and black woman have a child, what race is the child? It depends on where they live. In South Africa, he used to be illegal. In the US, he’s black. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/172 "2019-04-04T12:44:22Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > You mean besides his three years as an associate at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland? No, that’s included. Perhaps you missed the “full time”. > [@](#): > > Your use of the magisterial “We” apparently precludes the ability to do basic research. > > Expectorations, > CaptMurdock At least I know the meaning of common terms. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Not to interrupt your hurt feelings or anything, but white people talking to white people about racism isn’t really “whitesplaining”. There there, **Kimstu** - don’t get so triggered. I know this is hard. But we aren’t going to get anywhere until you settle down, and listen. No one is blaming _you_. It’s just that the system is set up wrong, and you don’t see that. It’s not your fault, and you can’t help it. You can’t even see it. Fortunately, I’m here to set you straight. Now stop being so defensive, and accept what you are told, and things will go much better for everyone. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/173 "2019-04-04T13:04:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > It depends on where they live. In South Africa, he used to be illegal. In the US, he’s black. Exactly – and both conclusions make no sense except if seen through the lens of racism. So when people say there’s no such thing as race, it is a commentary on how race is a social rather than scientific concept. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/174 "2019-04-04T13:23:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, that’s included. Perhaps you missed the “full time”.At least I know the meaning of common terms. > There there, **Kimstu** Wikipedia says: During the four years Obama worked as a full-time lawyer at the firm, he was involved in 30 cases and accrued 3,723 billable hours. Is that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/175 "2019-04-04T14:06:39Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Wikipedia says: > > During the four years Obama worked as a full-time lawyer at the firm, he was involved in 30 cases and accrued 3,723 billable hours. > > Is that wrong? Yep; perhaps, as has been pointed many, many times before, several conservatives should get better sources or unfriend some [del]fiends[/del] friends in their social media. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/176 "2019-04-04T14:10:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Exactly – and both conclusions make no sense except if seen through the lens of racism. > > So when people say there’s no such thing as race, it is a commentary on how race is a social rather than scientific concept. Problems being, one, they say it in a way that’s confusing. They don’t say “race is a social concept” or “race and ancestry are two different concepts, race is a social construct whereas ancestry is biological”. They say “race does not exist”. Denying the existence of something is not the same as pointing out its origins. And two, many of them, when you say “that race is a social construct doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist”, respond “no, no, I mean it doesn’t exist!” A lot of them are being absolutely literal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/177 "2019-04-04T14:22:44Z")
Yes, the issue should be explained better. But people who insist that race exists usually imply that it has a scientific basis, so these people ought to either clean up their language as well, or be corrected on their error. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/178 "2019-04-04T14:27:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Problems being, one, they say it in a way that’s confusing. They don’t say “race is a social concept” or “race and ancestry are two different concepts, race is a social construct whereas ancestry is biological”. They say “race does not exist”. Denying the existence of something is not the same as pointing out its origins. > > And two, many of them, when you say “that race is a social construct doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist”, respond “no, no, I mean it doesn’t exist!” A lot of them are being absolutely literal. That is because race is an imprecise proxy for the relationship between ancestry and genetics. > **[Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/)** > > Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out > [@](#): > > “What the study of complete genomes from different parts of the world has shown is that even between Africa and Europe, for example, there is not a single absolute genetic difference, meaning no single variant where all Africans have one variant and all Europeans another one, even when recent migration is disregarded,” Pääbo told Live Science. “It is all a question of differences in how frequent different variants are on different continents and in different regions.” > > In one example that demonstrated genetic differences were not fixed along racial lines, the full genomes of James Watson and Craig Venter, two famous American scientists of European ancestry, were compared to that of a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim. It turned out that Watson (who, ironically, became ostracized in the scientific community after making racist remarks) and Venter shared fewer variations in their genetic sequences than they each shared with Kim. > [@](#): > > So what other variables could be used if the racial concept is thrown out? Pääbo said geography might be a better substitute in regions such as Europe to define “populations” from a genetic perspective. However, he added that, in North America, where the majority of the population has come from different parts of the world during the past 300 years, distinctions like “African Americans” or “European Americans” might still work as a proxy to suggest where a person’s major ancestry originated. > > Yudell also said scientists need to get more specific with their language, perhaps using terms like “ancestry” or “population” that might more precisely reflect the relationship between humans and their genes, on both the individual and population level. The researchers also acknowledged that there are a few areas where race as a construct might still be useful in scientific research: as a political and social, but not biological, variable. > > “While we argue phasing out racial terminology in the biological sciences, we also acknowledge that using race as a political or social category to study racism, although filled with lots of challenges, remains necessary given our need to understand how structural inequities and discrimination produce health disparities between groups,” Yudell said. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/179 "2019-04-04T15:52:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > John McCain was a white US Presidential candidate who was born in Panama. If there “isn’t any difference” on the basis of race, why weren’t there any silly “birtherist” conspiracy theories about his eligibility to be President? > > Well, because a white American man born outside of the US is considered to be a trustworthy “regular American”, whereas a black American man born within the US to a black foreign Muslim father is considered to be a suspect “other” whose status as a “regular American” is intrinsically far less credible. There [was](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/07/there-was-a-very-real-birther-debate-about-john-mccain/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b07ee184645c)a [controversy](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23415028/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/mccains-citizenship-called-question/#.XKYnOFVKiUk)other whether McCain was eligible to be President. There were also controversies about Chester A Arthur, Charles Evans Hughes, Barry Goldwater, and Ted Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716/180 "2019-04-04T15:54:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Birtherism was because he was black, and that was the strongest tool they had to use against that particular black man. If Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson had been the opponent they would have used whatever tool was most effective against _those_ black men. If Obama had been white, would people have been against him, or are black candidates the only ones who face opposition? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-of-the-people-who-identify-as-white-have-a-hard-time-seeing-the-racism-around-them/831716.md?page=10)