# Why do so many people refuse the Order of the British Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 31, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935 "2003-12-31T13:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/21 "2003-12-31T23:17:06Z")
Frankly, the whole honours system is essentially quite random, and really doesn’t have much to do with actual merit. Bobby Robson lost to the Germans in the semifinals of the World Cup, just like every other England manager does (well, in the WC and European cup) and still got a peerage. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/22 "2003-12-31T23:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dutchboy208 \* > \*\* > If i recall rightly (and I may not) the GBE (Knight or Dame Grand Cross) and MBE are civilian honours, while the others are limited to those being honoured for military service. Again, from dim memory, the rank depends on one’s rank in the military when honored. For civilians, those being honored twice rise from MBE to GBE. > \*\* No, from the links provided, it is clear that the honors of Officer in the Order of the British Empire (also known as OBE) and Commander of the British Empire (CBE) are also open to civilians. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/23 "2003-12-31T23:57:33Z")
OK 'The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire" (there are sevral other orders of chivarly, for example “The Most hourable Order of Bath” and “The Order of Merit”) consists of the sovereign (i.e. the Queen) and five different classes (in descending order): i) Knights Grand Cross and Dames Grand Cross (GBE) ii) Knights and Dames Commanders (KBE and DBE) iii) Commanders (CBE) iv) Officers (OBE) v) Members (MBE) All these classes can be awarded on a miltary or civil basis (there is a limit on the number of miltary and civil awards in any given year, generally much more civil awards are allowed in a year accept in the case of the OBE where roughly the same number of miltary and civil awards are allowed). For example my Grandfather worked in the Foreign Office and never served in the armed forces, but he was awarded his OBE for actions in Malay just before the fall of Singapore in which he was captured. GBEs and KBEs should NOT be adressed with the prefix ‘Sir’ (this goes for any Knight of an Order Chivarly), they should be adressed by the letters their award. **Dutchboy** - Bobby Robson was the best manager of England post-1966, as in both his World Cups his team went out in unlucky circumstances (Hand of God, penalties) to the eventual winners. Also he doesn’t have a peerage he has a knighthood (as did Alf Ramsey). ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/24 "2003-12-31T23:59:23Z")
btw the cite for all the information for the Order of the Britsh Empire is _Debrett’s Peerage and Baronetage 1990_. ---
**Author:** ![lynxie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e99b99/32.png) [@lynxie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynxie)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/25 "2004-01-02T11:31:14Z")
my grandfather’s award (for military service in WWII) says… MBE (Milly) on the medal’s case. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/26 "2004-01-02T13:38:15Z")
Moved to IMHO. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/27 "2004-01-02T14:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhilAlex \* > \*\*I’ve heard from more than one person the the OBE is something to give people, who might otherwise bitch about not getting a knighthood. > > BTW: You get some perks to the OBE, btw: > > You can bring your sheep across London Bridge without paying a toll, and, if you are ever hung by the brits, they have to hang you with a SILK rope. \*\* Quite true my good man and also they [we that is] have to pay OBE holders for the privilige of executing them, I believe the going rate is 10gns. Not only that but they can be buried in a silk lined coffin with gold carrying handles. So you see what those bods are missing out on if they turn the OBE down. I believe Sir Roger Casement is the only hanged peer to have been refused all priviliges…treacherous dog ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/28 "2004-01-02T14:25:15Z")
\*\* Owl \*\* I’ve brought this oversight to Lizzies attention and your medal is in the post. You \* MAY \* receive it…eventually. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/29 "2004-01-02T14:28:29Z")
SPOGGA - you have just ruined my postman’s life. I will be badgering him for it non-stop now. Maybe, like Mick Jagger, I’ll get given it by Prince Charles (but I am definately not kneeling down in front of him!). Now could you sort out Greavsie and Billy Nic for me too? ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/30 "2004-01-02T14:53:20Z")
Is it true that Sir Mick asked to be given his knighthood the day after Jonny Wilkinson got his MBE, so that Sir BigLips would be the biggest star there on the day and the kangaroo-booted wonder would not overshadow him? And why did they give Jonny Wilkinson an MBE, then upgrade it a week later to an OBE? Does he have to give hand back his MBE, or can you have an MBE and an OBE at the same time? And, while I’m on the subject - when and where is it correct to wear your medals? ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/31 "2004-01-02T14:54:41Z")
OWL: Greavsie will be to pissed to collect and who is this Billy Nic of who you speak? Surely you don’t mean Bill Nicholson ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/32 "2004-01-02T14:56:29Z")
Oh and before I forget, Charlie gave Mick Jagger one right? So what thinks you are not deserving of a similar seeing to. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/33 "2004-01-02T14:58:10Z")
Furthermore [I’ll have to stop this] by referring to Greavsie and Billy Nic; do I take it you follow Hot Spurts ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/34 "2004-01-02T15:17:43Z")
Yes I do mean Bill Nicholson - twice the man that the rose faced govan piss-artist Ferguson will ever be. There is an ongoing campaign to get him knighted: [http://www.knightbillnick.co.uk/](http://www.knightbillnick.co.uk/) Not, so far, a huge sucess. Greavsie is the only person from the 66 WC campaign not to get a gong. As for other questions: If you go up the ranks of the orders you don’t hand back the lower rank, but it becomes redundant. You would never see someone called Bill Bloggs BEM OBE CBE KBE etc, just the highest. And as regards when to wear them: The invitation will state “decorations to be worn”. Owl Who’s dad was a KCVO (and an MBE (milly). but is himself as likely to get a medal as Muttley. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/35 "2004-01-02T15:55:48Z")
OWL: I take it you aren’t exactly enamoured of ol’ red conk then? Well snap matey, I’m a Manc and I follow a Manchester team. I wear MY decorations without being asked, shirt, scarf,bobble hat etc. etc. All in BLUE ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/36 "2004-01-02T16:03:55Z")
I have a tie pin with “fuck the gooners” written on it in small letters. It’s made of gold. That’s the closest I’ll get to a decoration. Obviously being a Manc means that you can’t support MUFC, as it’s against the rules for their supporters to come from Manchester. Nothing good wears red. BTW “Bobble hat”? Have you got a rattle and rosette too? ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/37 "2004-01-02T16:10:21Z")
OK I meant Bronx hat. My Grandad had a rattle and the biggest rosette you ever saw, he took me to my first cup final against Leicester City when the magnificent Neil Young scored the winning goal. I’m gonna dig out my progs now and have a weep for the glory days. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/38 "2004-01-02T16:29:46Z")
One of the first games I can rememeber going to was in 1967 - when you won the title (and we won the cup), when you came to the lane. My memory may be playing tricks but I remember that you won the title by beating us that day. I have the programme framed on the wall of my home-office. Owl Not at all sad in real life. Honest. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/39 "2004-01-02T18:24:24Z")
To get back to the topic, approximately 2% of those offered an honour refuse to accept it. It’s nothing new though. Apparently even as far back as the 13th century knights were refusing titles. So much so that King Henry III began imposing fines on those who did refuse ( source: Debrett’s Peerage and Baronetage). V ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935/40 "2004-01-02T20:24:23Z")
Reminds me of an exchange from the Tony Hancock radio show. Bill (an Australian): (indignantly) My grandfather got the Order of the British Empire! Tony: Bill, your grandfather was ordered **out** of the British Empire! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-refuse-the-order-of-the-british-empire/221935.md?page=3)