# Why do so many people still believe in God?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 17, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965 "2022-04-17T20:24:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 26
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/501 "2024-01-22T13:48:06Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> According to religious scholar Reza Aslan, the historical Jesus was a political rebel seeking to free Judea from the Romans. The mystical connotations were a side effect that were considerably embellished later.
Judea in this era was a hotbed of messianic zealotry which was both a religious and a political movement. It even had its share of murderous fanatics, the Sicarii, who are named for the blade that they carried and used to stab Roman occupiers and the Jews who were seen to be assimilating or cooperating with the Romans.
If Jesus _was_ an anti-Roman political leader, I really do not think that you could separate that sort of ideology from the religious connotations.
With that being said, I have seen the arguments that Jesus was a zealot before, and I am not sure I buy them. That ideology is certainly influential in his works, which makes sense given the time period he was operating in. However I am not sure how that fits with the majority of early Christians in the period immediately following his life being non-Jews; what appeal would a Judean independence leader have to them?
I suppose it is also possible that the Jesus known to us is a composite character, and that at least some of the people he is based on were political leaders.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/502 "2024-01-22T13:48:07Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Not to mention, unreliable narration. Where is the evidence that Jesus claimed to be the son of God during his lifetime?
>
> Here’s an alternate scenario. Jesus is a Jewish human teacher who goes around teaching things, mostly to other Jews. His message spreads. He is crucified by the Romans and dies. His followers keep spreading his message, with some prominent followers tweaking it in ways that make it more appealing to pagan Romans. One way this is done is by adopting Greco–Roman tropes into the Jesus story, inspired by tales of Zeus and pals begetting divine children with mortal women.
Well, yeah; that’s why I prefaced my remark with a quick _“if we take the account seriously”_.
But, again, what fascinates me is that _even if_ we figure, for the sake of argument, that the whole thing is shot through with fictional tweaks and trope-tastic additions, the story falls apart if people come across it and say, _“what the heck? This guy has a dream where he’s told about the divinity of Jesus, and reacts as if an angel had said that to him while he was wide awake in real life? No, that’s implausible; folks back then didn’t react that way to dreams.”_
But, instead, the story that got pitched — whether it was the unvarnished original, or a version that gor tweaked for consumption — apparently got accepted at face value by people who said, _“well, yeah; that would’ve been the appropriate reaction from a sensible guy: if someone back then had a dream like that, and wasn’t a liar or a lunatic, then I’d expect the story to play out that way.”_
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/503 "2024-01-22T13:55:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> But, again, what fascinates me is that _even if_ we figure, for the sake of argument, that the whole thing is shot through with fictional tweaks and trope-tastic additions, the story falls apart if people come across it and say, _“what the heck? This guy has a dream where he’s told about the divinity of Jesus, and reacts as if an angel had said that to him while he was wide awake in real life? No, that’s implausible; folks back then didn’t react that way to dreams.”_
Gotcha! Yes, I agree. The story as presented shows us how people back then thought about dreams, and combined with other sources I think we can confidently say that yes, back then people (at least, the people who are the target audience for the story) would hear “Joseph heard X in a dream” and unnderstand that to mean that Joseph learned true and valuable information through a supernatural source.
We see the same thing in the Torah, where (a different) Joseph gains his reputation by interpreting dreams, which people take very seriously. And [the Greeks and Romans took it very seriously too.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneirocritica)
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### Author:  [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/504 "2024-01-22T14:29:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I’m somewhere on the border line between agnostic and atheist myself, but anyone who claims to know with certainty one way or the other whether some “higher power” exists beyond natural physical laws is just expressing an article of faith without evidence.
I consider myself a weak agnostic who leans heavily toward atheism. I find it more logical to live in a universe with no creator, but I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of one.
Quantum mechanics teaches us that the world we live in is weird, especially at the sub-atomic level. An underlying intelligence to the universe is no weirder than quantum phenomena like superposition, entanglement, uncertainty, tunneling, quantization, interference, and so on.
However, a creator based on the Judaeo-Christian God (or other gods invented by humans) is too weird even for quantum mechanics.
On the other hand, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny - they’re real.
I think some people believe in God because they want to make sense of the world they were born into, and God is a simple and familiar concept for humans to understand. Others believe because they think that life should be fair, and that being rewarded for good deeds, or punished for sins, is just and right. Yet others believe because they can’t imagine, or don’t want to face, that their consciousness will end - a state beyond sleep, where no dreams happen, and it lasts forever (i.e. they want an afterlife, and God offers that).
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/505 "2024-01-22T18:51:54Z")
> [@Princhester](#):
>
> But you know why he said that, right?
Nope. It could be a frustrated response to “why” questions like my four year old grandson asks, or it could be profound.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/506 "2024-01-22T19:03:15Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Here’s an alternate scenario. Jesus is a Jewish human teacher who goes around teaching things, mostly to other Jews. His message spreads. He is crucified by the Romans and dies. His followers keep spreading his message, with some prominent followers tweaking it in ways that make it more appealing to pagan Romans. One way this is done is by adopting Greco–Roman tropes into the Jesus story, inspired by tales of Zeus and pals begetting divine children with mortal women. They also tweak the new faith so that observence of Jewish law, circumcision, etc are no longer required.
Plus, at the time the emperor of Rome was considered to be divine. Why would Romans who grew up with this belief listen to a mere mortal. So, Jesus began as a demigod, as you said, and then promoted to a real god, and then stuck in the Trinity to preserve monotheism.
Viewed dispassionately, the whole thing is a mess.
---
### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/507 "2024-01-22T21:28:14Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> > [@wolfpup](#):
> >
> > According to religious scholar Reza Aslan, the historical Jesus was a political rebel seeking to free Judea from the Romans. The mystical connotations were a side effect that were considerably embellished later.
>
> Judea in this era was a hotbed of messianic zealotry which was both a religious and a political movement. It even had its share of murderous fanatics, the Sicarii, who are named for the blade that they carried and used to stab Roman occupiers and the Jews who were seen to be assimilating or cooperating with the Romans.
>
> If Jesus _was_ an anti-Roman political leader, I really do not think that you could separate that sort of ideology from the religious connotations.
>
> With that being said, I have seen the arguments that Jesus was a zealot before, and I am not sure I buy them. That ideology is certainly influential in his works, which makes sense given the time period he was operating in. However I am not sure how that fits with the majority of early Christians in the period immediately following his life being non-Jews; what appeal would a Judean independence leader have to them?
My take on the account of Judas Iscariot (almost literally “Judy the Knife”) is that he was a political zealot who got tired of waiting for Jesus to kickstart the Revolution. He decided that if Jesus got tried and sentenced to death his followers would rise up in rebellion. When that didn’t happen (the whole Barabbas thing), Judas hanged himself in remorse.
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### Author:  [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/508 "2024-01-22T23:05:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> “what the heck? This guy has a dream where he’s told about the divinity of Jesus, and reacts as if an angel had said that to him while he was wide awake in real life? No, that’s implausible; folks back then didn’t react that way to dreams.”
I’m not sure I agree with your distinction between an angel visiting a person awake vs. asleep (via a dream). If one is willing to accept that angels exist and can show up in dreams to deliver messages, presumably they do it in a way that is unique and compelling enough to distinguish it from a regular old dream.
Everyone else is hearing about the dream second-hand anyway so the dreamer just needs to be convincing. “It wasn’t a regular dream! I could move my arms freely, read actual words from a scroll, when I went to my Final Exams I was fully dressed and I _had_ studied for them. So not a regular dream at all!”
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/509 "2024-01-22T23:09:50Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> I’m not sure I agree with your distinction between an angel visiting a person awake vs. asleep (via a dream). If one is willing to accept that angels exist and can show up in dreams to deliver messages, presumably they do it in a way that is unique and compelling enough to distinguish it from a regular old dream
That makes sense to you and I, modern people with a more or less rationalistic outlook on the reality (or unreality) of dreams.
That’s not a distinction that the ancients would have made.
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/510 "2024-01-22T23:21:26Z")
It’s a pun. My father’s version was slightly shorter:
“Why is a letter?”
It’s an auditory joke it doesn’t really work if you write it out.
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### Author:  [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/511 "2024-01-23T02:07:43Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> That makes sense to you and I, modern people with a more or less rationalistic outlook on the reality (or unreality) of dreams.
>
> That’s not a distinction that the ancients would have made.
Sorry, I guess I’m missing the point.
Two people show up in the town square. One of them says “I was tending my herd in the valley. An angel came and gave me a message.” The other one says “I just woke up from the most amazing dream. An angel came to me and gave me a message.”
I don’t see why a person, ancient or modern, would believe one person and not the other. If you can accept a angel can fly down into a valley, why wouldn’t you accept they could show up in a dream?
Sorry if I am being dense here.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/512 "2024-01-23T02:10:02Z")
The author of the Illustrated Guide to Terrorism credits the Sicarii with being the inventors of terrorism.
> **[The First Terrorists | The Illustrated Guide to Terrorism](https://terrorism.lawcomic.net/what-is-terrorism-pg-09-the-first-terrorists/)**
>
> The first terrorists, in the modern sense of the word, were first documented in the Middle East in the 50s—no, not the 1950s, literally 54 A.D.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/513 "2024-01-23T02:22:19Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> If you can accept a angel can fly down into a valley, why wouldn’t you accept they could show up in a dream?
I’m not at all convinced that that isn’t a distinction that the ancients would not have made.
I can accept the idea that they wouldn’t have rejected dreams as _just_ dreams, but not seeing a difference between dreams and waking experiences, no matter how unreal they seem, requires some more evidence.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/514 "2024-01-23T02:39:30Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> I don’t see why a person, ancient or modern, would believe one person and not the other. If you can accept a angel can fly down into a valley, why wouldn’t you accept they could show up in a dream?
Because when seemingly supernatural things happen in a dream, and then I wake up, I say, _“oh, it was a dream! Well, that explains it; stuff like that sometimes happens in dreams. You know, I once dreamed I was flying! And, when I woke up — and couldn’t fly — I concluded that I hadn’t been flying, and had never left the bed: that it was all just a dream.”_
I’d react very differently if I witnessed seemingly supernatural things while awake; for me, _“it was all just a dream”_ (a) completely suffices as an explanation when supernatural stuff turns out to have taken place while I was asleep, but (b) wouldn’t suffice at all to explain an event I witnessed while I wasn’t asleep.
Isn’t it like that for you? If you, like, see a murder happen in real life, that’s serious business, and you call the police; if you see it happen while you’re asleep and dreaming, and then you wake up, you — don’t? And so on?
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### Author:  [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/515 "2024-01-23T03:35:25Z")
Yes. If I had a dream about a visitation from an angel I would think it was just a dream. And that is likely true if I were an ancient me or a modern me.
If we accept that angels are not real, then anyone that asserts that they have been visited is either mistaken or being dishonest. In both cases they are not operating from a position of absolute logic. What they think is moot, no?
I thought the point you were making was not about the person claiming the visitation, but about the people hearing the stories of the visitations.
An ancient person hearing the story of a physical visitation might believe the story because it was plausible. However the same person hearing the story of a dream visitation would find it implausible because we’ve all had strange dreams and know how misleading they can be.
People hearing the story of the dream visitation could be convinced that although it was a dream, it was not a run-of-the-mill strange dream. It was a special dream, more like being awake then asleep, etc. Sure some people would fail to convince anyone, but some would be more convincing, compelling, or in a position of authority and would succeed.
Put it another way, there are just as many reasons to dismiss a story about a physical visitation as their are a dream visitation. “Sure an angel came to you last night in the fields. No one else was there to see it. Sure you aren’t making it up, you didn’t fall asleep and dream it, you weren’t drunk or eating those mushrooms” and so one.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/516 "2024-01-23T03:38:32Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> The author of the Illustrated Guide to Terrorism credits the Sicarii with being the inventors of terrorism.
And so? What does that have to do with the OP?
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> Yes. If I had a dream about a visitation from an angel I would think it was just a dream.
If I had a dream with an angel giving me the winning Lotto numbers for tomorrow, you bet I would spend $2.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/517 "2024-01-23T03:41:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> And so? What does that have to do with the OP?
You don’t know how that little curved arrow in the upper right of the post works? Try clicking on it and see what appears.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/518 "2024-01-23T03:45:43Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> You don’t know how that little curved arrow in the upper right of the post works? Try clicking on it and see what appears.
Yeah, and so? "_Why dont you teach your grandmother to suck eggs?"_ 🤪
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/519 "2024-01-23T12:10:33Z")
> [@CaveMike](#):
>
> If we accept that angels are not real, then anyone that asserts that they have been visited is either mistaken or being dishonest. In both cases they are not operating from a position of absolute logic. What they think is moot, no?
>
> I thought the point you were making was not about the person claiming the visitation, but about the people hearing the stories of the visitations.
In response to the bit about Lewis saying Jesus must have been liar or lord or lunatic, I said of Joseph’s dream: _“And if that’s true, and Jesus had a dream like that, then — what?”_
In such a case, _Jesus_ would be the person having such a dream, and wouldn’t need to have been liar or lunatic or lord to react to such a dream the way Joseph did; as you say there, he could’ve been _mistaken_ rather than being dishonest; Lewis set out three possibilities, but AFAICT missed that fourth one: Jesus could’ve been like unto someone who dreams about getting winning lottery numbers, and so puts down $2, and — well, didn’t actually get winning lottery numbers; it was all just a dream.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2024, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-people-still-believe-in-god/962965/520 "2024-01-23T12:27:17Z")
> [@Tibby](#):
>
> Quantum mechanics teaches us that the world we live in is weird, especially at the sub-atomic level. An underlying intelligence to the universe is no weirder than quantum phenomena like superposition, entanglement, uncertainty, tunneling, quantization, interference, and so on.
>
> However, a creator based on the Judaeo-Christian God (or other gods invented by humans) is too weird even for quantum mechanics.
I’d say the opposite actually.
The god of the bible isn’t weird at all; he’s a fairly typical ruler of the Bronze Age, but with extra powers, in a book of very typical mythology of the era.
If it really were a divinely-inspired book, written by the guy who made all that crazy QM shit as the mere _lego blocks_ as part of _step one_ in creating an entire universe, I would expect a lot more weird stuff in the book. Stuff that only made sense to us centuries later. And stuff that we still would be scratching our heads about but will make sense to us at a future time with greater understanding.
There’s none of that. It’s a violent soap opera.
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