# Why do so many skeptics give believers a free pass? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113 "2007-02-21T17:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/21 "2007-02-21T18:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] My point is simply that if you think you’re going to convince a theist that there is no god by trotting out the tired old “But what about the flying spaghetti monster?” routine, you’re not going to have a lot of success. [/QUOTE] Does it cease to be a valid argument because it’s well-known? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/22 "2007-02-21T19:16:32Z")
[QUOTE=Quentin S. Smith] Not that I disagree with you, but I would be interested in hearing your argument. What if the aliens have the Romulan cloaking technology? [/quote] A very good book for you to put on your reading list would be _The Demon Haunted World,_ by Carl Sagan, in which he postulates a dialogue between a debunker and a believer in a dragon in his garage, which I find analgous to your aliens/cloaking question. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/23 "2007-02-21T19:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Does it cease to be a valid argument because it’s well-known? 😕 [/QUOTE] No, but since its so well known, wouldn’t it have worked by now if it were effective? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/24 "2007-02-21T19:24:52Z")
They are like our children. We wait for them to grow up and develop their own thinking. We were like them once and when we became able to think rationally ,we threw off our programming and learned critical analysis. It just flies against logic and hopefully they will get there. We don’t hate our children because they believe in Santa. or the Easter bunny. We know they will outgrow it or learn to see the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/25 "2007-02-21T19:27:14Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Does it cease to be a valid argument because it’s well-known? [/QUOTE] Yes. Because rolling one’s eyes and saying “oh, that again” absolves one of the responsibility of offering any kind of rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![rhettro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@rhettro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhettro)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/26 "2007-02-21T19:34:49Z")
As a species, we know precious little to declare God does or does not exist. We might as well be arguing over why blue is a better color than red. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/27 "2007-02-21T19:36:59Z")
[QUOTE=Quentin S. Smith] I was talking about skeptics in general. I’m not that familiar with this board yet. [/QUOTE] Ah. Sorry, I misread your opening post, and withdraw my slightly obnoxious question. You will find that on this board, the… ahem… interplay between the skeptics and the religious folks is indeed quite challenging. It sometimes leads to some of the [weirdest stuff](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408995) you’ll ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/28 "2007-02-21T19:37:28Z")
[QUOTE=Quentin S. Smith] Question for you: why do you think that honest, well-meaning skeptics will debunk many unfounded superstitions but steer away from the belief in God? [/quote] I used to be more active in CSICOP, and at some of their seminars I would often bring up the same question. I think it’s a legitimate concern. From informal conversations with some of the principals, they felt that a belief in UFOs or LGMs was not in the same class as religion. Religions tend to be inherited; passed down in families, and are deep-rooted. It is considered gauche to question a person’s religious beliefs in polite society. In contrast, UFO proponents don’t have the backing of a formal, established church or the legacy of centuries of culture and belief. So even if we agree that religion has a lot in common with other beliefs, it is harder to attack attitudes so strongly held and so much a part of an otherwise rational mainstream society. A CSICOP vs. Catholic Church et al debate would be a lopsided contest in many ways and some thought this kind of confrontation would do more hard than good to the skeptic “cause,” at least for the time being. Personally, I agree with [Sam Harris](http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0393327655/sr=8-2/qid=1172085820/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2605783-5491951?ie=UTF8&s=books) that religion shouldn’t be off-limits, but subject to the same examination and testing we give to other unproven beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/29 "2007-02-21T19:38:25Z")
[QUOTE=rhettro] We might as well be arguing over why blue is a better color than red. [/QUOTE] We’re all color blind. I’m just blind against one more color than you. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/30 "2007-02-21T20:06:11Z")
> [@Quentin S. Smith](#): > > Question for you: why do you think that honest, well-meaning skeptics will debunk many unfounded superstitions but steer away from the belief in God? Robert Todd Carroll [doesn’t](http://skepdic.com/gods.html). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/31 "2007-02-21T20:12:10Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] I used to be more active in CSICOP, and at some of their seminars I would often bring up the same question. I think it’s a legitimate concern. From informal conversations with some of the principals, they felt that a belief in UFOs or LGMs was not in the same class as religion. [/quote] I agree, but not in the way most people would. A belief in UFOs and alien abductions is much _more_ sensible than believing in God; it doesn’t require anything as physics-ignoring as an intangible all powerful being. Not that I believe in either, but I consider the fact that both get put in the same category a demonstration of the false respect religion gets. [QUOTE=Musicat] Religions tend to be inherited; passed down in families, and are deep-rooted. It is considered gauche to question a person’s religious beliefs in polite society. [/quote] Polite society - as defined by the majority, who are religious. Which is very lopsided, since it’s perfectly OK to push your religion on others in most American’s eyes; you just aren’t supposed to challenge the beliefs of those doing the pushing. As far as the OP goes, it’s because the religious have the numbers and the power; people are both propagandized and intimidated into not questioning religion. Many atheists/agnostics won’t even mention they fact that they _are_ atheists/agnostics, much less actually argue against religion. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/32 "2007-02-21T21:20:13Z")
If I say, “I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no God,” it won’t take but seconds for someone to say, “Prove it.” And yet, that is how I conduct my life. That is why I don’t go to church. That is why I don’t waste time with prayer. Because, as surely as the Baptist preacher who records his program for my radio station every week says, “I know in my heart that there is a God and He works in my life,” I know in mine there isn’t. It’s called belief. So we have to give up “knowing” and fall back on “believing.” And if that’s giving believers a pass, well, there’s nothin’ I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/33 "2007-02-21T21:27:53Z")
[QUOTE=Quentin S. Smith] Question for you: why do you think that honest, well-meaning skeptics will debunk many unfounded superstitions but steer away from the belief in God? [/QUOTE] Here’s my best shot at a direct and fair answer to this question: It depends on the skeptic. Some _don’t_ steer away; belief in God is high on their list of things to debunk. Some skeptics believe in God (Martin Gardner is a famous example of a skeptic/theist). Some don’t think the question of God is one that can be settled rationally. Some think that belief in God, while false, is harmless, or even beneficial, and would rather spend their time debunking harmful beliefs. Some have close friends, family members, or colleagues who are believers, and they avoid challenging such beliefs out of respect for those people. Some think that the question of the existence of God is so broad, or has been around for so long and has been debated so much, that there’s nothing much they can add. And there are probably other reasons as well. > [@](#): > > I’ve been in many discussions where the person claiming “I see ghosts” or “Aliens are sending spaceships to watch us” is quickly dealt with, but when the boast is “I know there’s a God” the supposed skeptics hem and haw, saying “well, we can’t know either way.” This never made sense to me. The former are far more specific statements than the latter—hence, easier to investigate and falsify or argue against. The latter is more broad. The obvious response to “I know there’s a God” is “How do you know?” Doesn’t anyone ever say that? (Or are you afraid they might have a good reason?) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/34 "2007-02-21T22:00:59Z")
The believers get a free pass because there’s no convincing them. Faith means believing in something you know isn’t true. If you know it’s true, that’s fact, not faith, so they don’t mind that they can’t prove it to you either. I don’t worry about believers, it’s no skin off my ass if they want to believe, and almost all of them are already 99% of the way to atheism already. They don’t believe in Thor, or Zeus, or Mars, or Aphrodite. They don’t believe in Anubis, or Vishnu, or Shiva, or Quetzacoatal. There are 1000 gods they don’t believe in, and I don’t believe in those thousand either, plus I don’t believe in one more, or maybe three more depending on how hopped up they are on that whole trinity deal. We’re not talking about a great deal of difference here, are we? Three gods out of a thousand. It is to laugh. Now, the DH rule, there’s something significant to argue about. ---
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/35 "2007-02-21T22:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=Quentin S. Smith] I was talking about skeptics in general. I’m not that familiar with this board yet. [/QUOTE] Then you should read and comment on a few different threads. I see all of your posts are on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/36 "2007-02-21T22:20:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] Faith means believing in something you know isn’t true. [/QUOTE] That isn’t truly what faith means. But you go right on believing it if you want to. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/37 "2007-02-21T22:30:37Z")
[slight hijack] Is the OP really Quentin Smith - the one who debated with William Craig? [/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/38 "2007-02-21T22:44:12Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] No, but since its so well known, wouldn’t it have worked by now if it were effective? [/QUOTE] So we should give up on an idea because stubborn people refuse to accept it? There goes Galileo trotting out that tired old “the earth isn’t the center of the universe” routine again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/39 "2007-02-21T23:03:46Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] Have you actually been reading this board? [/QUOTE] Dude, I came _this_ close to spraying Diet Coke all over my monitor. Perfect timing. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113/40 "2007-02-22T04:13:11Z")
[QUOTE=According to Pliny] Then you should read and comment on a few different threads. I see all of your posts are on this one. [/QUOTE] A new poster has to start somewhere. I don’t see any reason why someone’s first few posts should be spread out over several different threads. In fact, I look with some suspicion upon guests who come in here and start spouting opinions scatter-shot over a variety of threads at the same time. Focus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-so-many-skeptics-give-believers-a-free-pass/393113.md?page=3)