# Why do some breeder insist the dogs they sell have to be spayed & cannot be bred? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 14, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011 "2012-12-14T08:15:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/21 "2012-12-15T18:50:44Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > If they’re a show line, it’s not that they don’t want competitors with the same line, it’s likely that they only want the show-quality dogs representing and carrying on the line. I once read that some breeders euthanize up to 75% of their pups, I’d like a cite for proof of that. IF it happens, it’s a very small percentage. And frankly, with the numbers of dogs euthanized at shelters each year, perhaps it’s better if they are humanely euthanized as tiny puppies rather than being passed around or abandoned and then ending up in a shelter and being euthanized any way. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/22 "2012-12-15T19:04:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m still not sure I understand. Do you mean that professional, licensed dog breeders consciously sell only the “lesser” animals as pets? > > Not that I care much; I’m a cat man and believe in getting them from shelters. Pretty much,yes. I purchased an affenpinscher from a breeder who shows dogs. The dog I puchased was too large and had an incorrect bite. She could not use this dog for breeding or showing so it became a pet quality dog. The dog came to me neutered. He is AKC registered and came from a show quality line but didn’t make the cut. I am very glad he didn’t because his little imperfections fit in with our family just fine. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/23 "2012-12-15T19:32:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m still not sure I understand. Do you mean that professional, licensed dog breeders consciously sell only the “lesser” animals as pets? > > Not that I care much; I’m a cat man and believe in getting them from shelters. Well, in the US I don’t think any breeder is “licensed”, other than holding a kennel license if numbers of animals require it for their locality. But yes, breeders I know keep their best and sell whatever doesn’t make the cut. Some breeders trade with other breeders as well. But if someone works with a breed they often show their best, obtaining positive notoriety in breed circles and raising demand for their studs and bitches. And although I know a few people who breed beautiful dogs, all of ours have come from shelters. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/24 "2012-12-15T22:31:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m still not sure I understand. Do you mean that professional, licensed dog breeders consciously sell only the “lesser” animals as pets? > > Not that I care much; I’m a cat man and believe in getting them from shelters. They are not “lesser” dogs from most perspectives. But they are “lesser” in the sense that they cannot be shown, should not be bred, and may - if it’s a temperament or structural issue - not be able to work, or compete in working events. The term “pet quality” reflects this - they will certainly make every bit as good a pet and family dog; they just can’t be shown or bred. And depending what one wants the dog for - guide dog, Schutzhund, police/military work, agility, showing - if the pup doesn’t have the correct temperament or drive, or has a physical condition that would make it impossible, or harmful for the dog, then it’s of lesser…not quality, but usefulness to that particular buyer, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/25 "2012-12-15T22:52:54Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Because they have traits that, to the breed enthusiast and purist, do not exemplify the best of the breed. It doesn’t mean that those aren’t good dogs, it just means that breeding them and passing on those traits is not in the best interest of the breed as a whole, and of that particular breeder’s program. > > I have a purebred Lab from [this kennel](http://www.cedarwoodkennels.com/). She is the third dog I’ve bought from them for several reasons: > > - because I like their overall appearance > - because I know that they breed for a good working temperament and trainability (and yes that’s very much an inherited trait) > - because they have done their utmost to screen for common common flaws such as hip, elbow and eye problems and I can be relatively assured that my dog will not have them. > - because they take the time to ‘prove’ their breeding dogs in as many facets of dog sport as they can. They are serious about the breed, not just pumping out puppies for money. > > My dog is a lovely example of the breed, but I bought her as pet quality because I have no interest in keeping an intact female. I _would_ sort of like to show in the breed ring, but not enough to have an unspayed dog around. So we are showing in Obedience, Rally, and soon will add Agility too. My girl is incredibly smart and willing to learn and please, which is what I wanted. She is however a bit on the shy side, which is bad for a gundog (the breeder’s focus) and probably not the best as even a run-of-the-mill household pet. The breeder knows me, knows I train, and felt comfortable sending her to me. > > Breed people (for any species) are a weird lot. I think they may be a little like WoW or D&D folks - the minutiae really count, and are what holds them. Very nice dogs there! That is clearly a person who works and shows her dogs first, and is interested in staying in touch with her puppy buyers to see how the pups are doing. You are correct about “breed people” and crazy dog people 🙂 in general. I think it’s hard for many non-dog people to understand. But when your dog/s, and related activities become a central part of your life, then finding “just the right dog” for that particular endeavor often boils down to minutae. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/26 "2012-12-15T23:27:56Z")
> [@saje](#): > > I’d like a cite for proof of that. IF it happens, it’s a very small percentage. And frankly, with the numbers of dogs euthanized at shelters each year, perhaps it’s better if they are humanely euthanized as tiny puppies rather than being passed around or abandoned and then ending up in a shelter and being euthanized any way. **Saje** - I read that in a poll in the AKC Gazette, the magazine for dog breeders. It was sent out the poll to breeders registering with them. Not all breeders did that. This was also probably 15 years ago. **Hello Again** - I’ve read that it’s common in large breed-specific organizations. TB, standardbred, QH. StG ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/27 "2012-12-16T00:15:59Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > They are not “lesser” dogs from most perspectives. > But they are “lesser” in the sense that they cannot be shown, should not be bred, and may - if it’s a temperament or structural issue - not be able to work, or compete in working events. Yup, this. The counterpart of ‘pet quality’ is ‘show quality’, and not everyone wants a show dog. If the breeder knows what they’re doing and has selected good breeding stock, all the pups are going to be great dogs. A pet quality dog from a good breeder will be healthy, happy, and good tempered, and quite capable of doing the same things its show quality siblings do, just to a somewhat lower level. (The show ring requires that dogs be intact, so spaying/neutering rules out that hobby. Dog sports generally don’t care, though.) Often a dog is considered pet quality due to something as minor as having body proportions that aren’t what the breeder wants - legs that are too long, or ears that are put on too high. The average person probably won’t be able to see the difference. Breeding better dogs isn’t an end goal in itself. The point is to create an animal that humans like to have around, either as a working partner or as a companion. Pet quality dogs that spend their life chasing balls in the backyard are doing exactly what they were intended for. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/28 "2012-12-16T00:53:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t understand this. Why is a pet quality dog not suitable as a breeding animal? Basically, dog showing and pedigree dogs in general are the only acceptable form of eugenics™ since the Nazis showed us what the results are when you apply that to people. Dogs are chosen based upon arbitary breed standards rather than things that would actually make them suitable for a pet; indeed many pedigree dog lines are hugely inbred and corrupted. For example, the so-called “best” bulldogs cannot mate without human intervention, pugs can hardly breathe, german shepards can hardly walk, king charles spaniels brains grow bigger than their skulls, and bizarre genetic diseases are common place, as are inbreeding coefficients of over 25%! The entire thing is **shocking** and any animal lover should be appalled by the weirdos that run the American and UK kennel clubs. For further information, start by watching [Pedigree Dogs Exposed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg). The creator of that has also made a sequel and she runs a blog here. You could not make up the lunatic way that many dog breeders and showers think. They are not interested in what 99% of dog owners are, i.e. a healthy dog with a certain personality and certain exercise requirement - it’s all about nutty irrelevant breed standards to them. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/29 "2012-12-16T00:55:20Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > Yup, this. The counterpart of ‘pet quality’ is ‘show quality’, and not everyone wants a show dog. If the breeder knows what they’re doing and has selected good breeding stock, all the pups are going to be great dogs. A pet quality dog from a good breeder will be healthy, happy, and good tempered, and quite capable of doing the same things its show quality siblings do, just to a somewhat lower level. (The show ring requires that dogs be intact, so spaying/neutering rules out that hobby. Dog sports generally don’t care, though.) Often a dog is considered pet quality due to something as minor as having body proportions that aren’t what the breeder wants - legs that are too long, or ears that are put on too high. The average person probably won’t be able to see the difference. > > Breeding better dogs isn’t an end goal in itself. The point is to create an animal that humans like to have around, either as a working partner or as a companion. Pet quality dogs that spend their life chasing balls in the backyard are doing exactly what they were intended for. Yes, and I will add this: If you really want a particular breed just because: Look to rescue, first. Purebred dogs are all over petfinder and rescue sites. Both puppies and adult dogs. Second option, if you really feel you _must_ have a pure-bred puppy: Look for “pet quality” puppies from serious, ethical breeders. Those that do all the health-testing, put show/working titles on their dogs, and really care. Almost always this will be a better option that buying from a high-volume, breeding-only operation. And, usually, cheaper. I don’t actually think there is a responsible third or fourth option. To me, buying from high-volume, breeding-for-profit operations (like the link in the OP), or buying “pure bred” dogs off of craigslist or kijiji, or some attactive-looking website with lots of cute pictures and no substance…well, none of these are responsible options, IMHO. And each will encourage the sellers to produce even more puppies. Unless you have very specific and well-researched and thought-out reasons for buying a specific breed, there’s probably no valid reason to buy a puppy from a breeder. Another plug for adult rescue dogs: assuming they’ve been in a foster home or supervised care, the caretaker/foster has an excellent idea of how they are with kids, other animals, enclosures, house manners, health issues etc. When you get an adult dog, you’re getting a known entity. With puppies - well knowledgeable people can predict a lot, but nobody can guarantee 100% how a pup will turn out. And back to the OP - Northern breeds (Huskies, Sibes, Eskies, Sammies etc) are beautiful, sweet dogs. They do, however, shed a metric shit-ton of fur, year-around. They are smart as heck, but not typically trainable because they are independent and were bred to be cooperative with other dogs but not really to work with their humans. They have a high prey drive (your cats and toy dogs may not be safe with them.) They are diggers, because that’s part of their makeup. They are crappy guard or watch dogs, because they’ve been bred to be tractable and cooperative. They are notorious runners and escapers. In short, your typical Northern type dog is not really an ideal family dog, although they are wonderful animals overall. Researching and understanding the original purpose of a breed is important, if you are seriously considering taking on a 10-15 year commitment. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/30 "2012-12-16T01:09:57Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Basically, dog showing and pedigree dogs in general are the only acceptable form of eugenics™ since the Nazis showed us what the results are when you apply that to people. > > Dogs are chosen based upon arbitary breed standards rather than things that would actually make them suitable for a pet; indeed many pedigree dog lines are hugely inbred and corrupted. For example, the so-called “best” bulldogs cannot mate without human intervention, pugs can hardly breathe, german shepards can hardly walk, king charles spaniels brains grow bigger than their skulls, and bizarre genetic diseases are common place, as are inbreeding coefficients of over 25%! > > The entire thing is **shocking** and any animal lover should be appalled by the weirdos that run the American and UK kennel clubs. > > For further information, start by watching [Pedigree Dogs Exposed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg). The creator of that has also made a sequel and she runs a blog here. > > You could not make up the lunatic way that many dog breeders and showers think. They are not interested in what 99% of dog owners are, i.e. a healthy dog with a certain personality and certain exercise requirement - it’s all about nutty irrelevant breed standards to them. You are not wrong. It is disgusting what has happened to many breeds because of the obsession for breeding only for form. This is why in my posts to this thread, I have stressed _working_ titles and ability over showing. It is also why the last dog I purchased was from someone who values working ability, temperament and health over pure cosmetics. There ARE many people in the dog world who believe in function over form, and are maintaining or breeding dogs close to their working, healthy function rather than simply trying to produce what they think judges are looking for. American-bred German shepherds are IMHO an abomination. Bully breeds are becoming mutants. Rottweilers (“my” breed) are all too often bred for larger size, mushy personalities and massive heads, rather than the lighter-weight, extremely athletic, versatile farm dogs they started out as. I had a brief foray into conformation showing, but hated the entire mindset. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/31 "2012-12-16T01:40:55Z")
Yep, and my beloved Labs seem to be separating into “English” or breed ring dogs that are getting too squat and chunky to be the fluid athletes that they should be, and the “Field” Lab that really does go out in the field and work, but are hyper to the point of manic and are starting to look like Pointer crosses. The breeder I linked to seems to have found a nice balance in body type and huntability. The dogs are compact without being dwarfish, and eager without being hyperactive. Oh, and just 'cuz I’m a proud dog owner: [Here’s Luna with her loot from our last show](https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/6621_4669770273833_93108983_n.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/32 "2012-12-16T01:52:11Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > They are not “lesser” dogs from most perspectives. > But they are “lesser” in the sense that they cannot be shown, should not be bred, and may - if it’s a temperament or structural issue - not be able to work, or compete in working events. > > The term “pet quality” reflects this - they will certainly make every bit as good a pet and family dog; they just can’t be shown or bred. And depending what one wants the dog for - guide dog, Schutzhund, police/military work, agility, showing - if the pup doesn’t have the correct temperament or drive, or has a physical condition that would make it impossible, or harmful for the dog, then it’s of lesser…not quality, but usefulness to that particular buyer, I guess. Same goes for cats. I love the temperament of Siamese cats. I also love their appearance, but if a cat has crossed eyes or a kinked tail, that cat is unsuitable for breeding. However, the cat might be a perfectly good household pet, and be every bit as opinionated and demanding as a show quality Siamese. I don’t like the modern Persians and the various folded ear variety of cats. Persians have breathing problems, and the folded ear cats have a tendency to have skin problems in the folds. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/33 "2012-12-16T01:58:56Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Yep, and my beloved Labs seem to be separating into “English” or breed ring dogs that are getting too squat and chunky to be the fluid athletes that they should be, and the “Field” Lab that really does go out in the field and work, but are hyper to the point of manic and are starting to look like Pointer crosses. > > The breeder I linked to seems to have found a nice balance in body type and huntability. The dogs are compact without being dwarfish, and eager without being hyperactive. > > Oh, and just 'cuz I’m a proud dog owner: [Here’s Luna with her loot from our last show](https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/6621_4669770273833_93108983_n.jpg) \ Luna looks like she understands she deserved that! Good dog Luna! One of my three dogs is a “probably” Labrador. He is a failed foster…came to me from local police as a Lab pup found in a park, but had endless garbage gut, then undescended testicles, and by the time all that got sorted out he had sort of ingratiated himeslf into my house and was very bonded with my little terrier cross. So his name (intended to be temporary since he was a foster) is “Deefer.” D fer Dog. 🙂 AKA Deefyman, or The Labradork. He is either pure/poorly bred Labrador, or Lab with a scootch of something else mixed in. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/34 "2012-12-16T02:37:10Z")
Labradork is so great! And suits a good number of them, mine included. I’m glad Deefer landed with you! ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/35 "2012-12-16T06:41:44Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Basically, dog showing and pedigree dogs in general are the only acceptable form of eugenics™ since the Nazis showed us what the results are when you apply that to people. > > […] > > You could not make up the lunatic way that many dog breeders and showers think. They are not interested in what 99% of dog owners are, i.e. a healthy dog with a certain personality and certain exercise requirement - it’s all about nutty irrelevant breed standards to them. WOW… what a rant. I personally select dogs according to their breed because I happen to need dogs to fulfill a function. Amazingly… their breed is a pretty darn good predictor of their personalities. It is the “99% of dog owners” backyard breeders (and couldn’t be bothered to neuter their dog a$$hats) who are the source of all the pound dogs being euthanized out there. Maybe when those sleazy backyard “my dog’s AKC registered” breeders quit producing their pound fodder, conditions will improve for dogs. AND… FYI… ALL domestic animals are the result of breeding standards. Each breed has strengths and weaknesses and quality breeders are the only reason that there are healthy animals out there. Pounds don’t practice eugenics… they’re disposing of a problem created by those “I wuv my doggie, so lets make a mint by making more” backyard breeders. They are the source of the **majority** of the weak, sick, ill-tempered and disabled animals that are produced. People, if you don’t care about the quality of your animal, then just get it from a rescue and quit encouraging these low life backyard breeders. At least the rescue will tell you what you’re getting into. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011/36 "2012-12-16T12:45:10Z")
Eugenics is applied to farm stock all the time, nothing wrong with that, we’ve been doing it for thousands of years to perpetuate the desired characteristics we want to see in stock. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-breeder-insist-the-dogs-they-sell-have-to-be-spayed-cannot-be-bred/644011.md?page=1)