# Why do \*some\* music fans get so angry... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584 "2011-04-16T04:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/41 "2011-04-17T14:10:01Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > “Beyond the conventions of rock and roll” (in other words, highly original) may be an objective assessment, but “friggin’ breathtaking” or “gorgeous” are certainly subjective opinion. > > There’s a decent point in there somewhere, which is that one can analyze objective elements of music and find things that were original or influential about it. But you can’t tell me the Beatles are objectively “breathtaking”. That’s an emotional reaction. > > Frankly, I have a bigger emotional reaction to Pearl Jam, and that doesn’t mean my feelings are “wrong”. My browser has crashed twice after I composed a lengthy response, and I don’t have the energy to construct it again (aaaarrrrggghh!!!). Suffice it to say you have a point–my sentiments seeped into my response. But my point remains–to dismiss the body of work of the Beatles as trash is not the same as saying that “They’re not my cup of tea.” It’s reflective of a certain ignorance. It’s not surprising the OP has gotten the responses he has, given the tone of his contributions to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/42 "2011-04-17T14:41:42Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > My own children call me a “Dave hater” (DMB). Hey, it’s not my fault that the guy couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket. Hey, dude, don’t hate on the bro ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/43 "2011-04-17T15:00:45Z")
Musicians are people who work hard and create from whats inside them. When I remember that, all the music ‘fan’ things I’ve said about one group over another group while growing up come into focus as mean spirited\*. I admit it. I have dis’d the Pan Flute Music of Zamfir. (I am so ashamed) \*Does this mean I have to like Air Supply now…? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/44 "2011-04-17T15:50:59Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Truth be told, I haven’t heard many Beatles songs either all the way through. But of the ones I have, I don’t like. I’ve heard enough Nirvana in clips and snippets that I know I don’t like them. I’m not saying they are objectively bad on some kind of music ranking, but I don’t care for them. This is all perfectly fair and reasonable to say. > [@](#): > > Even if they aren’t music for angsty teenagers, that’s all I’m going to hear when I listen to them and it’s going to turn me off. My mental image of rock and roll is “loud”, for rap it’s “talking”, for country it’s “rednecks”. That may not be fair, but when I hear music in those genres, I’m going to think that and it’s going to be almost impossible for me to like it despite the imagery. This is where you cross the rubicon. I certainly hate almost every current coutry song I’ve heard (and I’ve heard a lot of them), but it’s not because of an association with rednecks. You’re not hating the music because of the music. You’re hating the music because you’ve got a hang up and I think it’s fair for people to call you out on it. ---
**Author:** ![dawson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@dawson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dawson)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/45 "2011-04-17T16:48:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Well, with due respect, as directed at the comment from you that I quoted, yes. As Indygrrl said, though, the point is that people can understand the music full well and still prefer something else. But when someone calls the Beatles shrill, talentless hacks, that commentary resides toward the “clueless” end of the spectrum. It goes beyond the “not my cup of tea” territory, and wanders into the “I don’t understand this music” region. So, again, yes. The answer to why people tell you in particular that you don’t understand a particular category of music could well be that you don’t understand it. > > And the “So it begins” comment–sheesh. Take yourself pretty seriously, do you? Originally Posted by **CheeseDonkey** When they were the Beatles, all I ever heard was shrill singing, simplistic music and even more simplistic lyrics. To be fair\*\* Stratocaster\*\*, the OP never called the Beatles “shrill talentless hacks”. He said when **he** heard them, they sounded shrill to **him** , simplistic to **him**. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/46 "2011-04-17T17:29:05Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How much music of theirs am I supposed to listen to before I can dismiss them? I’m not going to sit down and have someone dissect hours of a band’s many albums before I decide I don’t like it > > Truth be told, I haven’t heard many Beatles songs either all the way through. But of the ones I have, I don’t like. I’ve heard enough Nirvana in clips and snippets that I know I don’t like them. I’m not saying they are objectively bad on some kind of music ranking, but I don’t care for them. Even if they aren’t music for angsty teenagers, that’s all I’m going to hear when I listen to them and it’s going to turn me off. My mental image of rock and roll is “loud”, for rap it’s “talking”, for country it’s “rednecks”. That may not be fair, but when I hear music in those genres, I’m going to think that and it’s going to be almost impossible for me to like it despite the imagery. You don’t have to listen to any of it. But if you don’t, then you don’t know anything about it. When you suggest that you don’t like Nirvana becasue you were never an angsty teen, or that you don’t like Buck Owens because you’re not a redneck, you are saying something qualitative about the music. That’s when you get people thinking you know nothing about music. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/47 "2011-04-17T17:51:58Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > Hey, dude, don’t hate on the bro ☹ I’ve really tried to listen to this guy, but his music all sounds pretty much like variations on the same tune. But even if I concede that his music is okay, nobody can say he can sing, and keep a straight face while doing so. Me no hate, but me no like. ---
**Author:** ![RedWood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f08c70/32.png) [@RedWood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedWood)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/48 "2011-04-17T18:23:52Z")
sheesh! \*goes over to the stereo and puts on Zappa’s ‘Broadway The Hard Way’ instead ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/49 "2011-04-17T18:26:40Z")
> [@RedWood](#): > > sheesh! > \*goes over to the stereo and puts on Zappa’s ‘Broadway The Hard Way’ instead Keep that crap down! I’m trying to throat sing over here! ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/50 "2011-04-17T18:28:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Truth be told, I haven’t heard many Beatles songs either all the way through. But of the ones I have, I don’t like. How old are you? I’ve wondered how the dramatic commercialization of Beatles’ music would effect the subsequent generation of listeners. There is a huge difference between hearing a snippet during a Target commercial and listening to Revolver on a boom-box in the back yard while you and your dad rake leaves (my first exposure). In my experience, the surrounding environment has an enormous impact on which music I enjoy and appreciate. I always thought jazz was noodly and boring until a friend of mine sat me down on a hungover sat morning and explained to me how the artists work off each other. He helped me understand the creative dynamic and now I enjoy listening to some jazz. I feel bad for people who hear Beatles’ music chopped up and linked with products before they hear it as intended by the artists. I can see how it would turn them off forever. > [@](#): > > My mental image of rock and roll is “loud”, for rap it’s “talking”, for country it’s “rednecks”. That may not be fair, but when I hear music in those genres, I’m going to think that and it’s going to be almost impossible for me to like it despite the imagery. Oh I get it, you’re another “I listen to everything but country and rap” guy. You are welcome to your opinion, but don’t try to have a music conversation if you’re going to close your mind to a band because of a genre label. Most people who love music eagerly try everything they can get their hands on. Perhaps you don’t really love music, but just like a few bands. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/51 "2011-04-17T18:49:07Z")
> [@CheeseDonkey](#): > > Just because I don’t like Nirvana doesn’t mean I listen to the worthless pop crap that has infiltrated the airwaves. See you’re doing it here and don’t even know it. Being judgemental of someone’s musical tastes by referring to “worthless pop crap”. Just because you don’t listen to something doesn’t make it crap. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/52 "2011-04-17T18:56:36Z")
> [@dawson](#): > > Originally Posted by **CheeseDonkey** > When they were the Beatles, all I ever heard was shrill singing, simplistic music and even more simplistic lyrics. > > To be fair\*\* Stratocaster\*\*, the OP never called the Beatles “shrill talentless hacks”. He said when **he** heard them, they sounded shrill to **him** , simplistic to **him**. That’s a subtle distinction indeed. Anyway, I’d say you’re being fair to a fault. In that same post he suggested that people like acts like the Beatles not because of their music but because they’re enamored with their personalities and back story. I’m not reading it in total any other way than he is disdainful of a product that he clearly feels is smoke and mirrors, an illusion that has fooled some of us lesser souls. I think he crossed the line into “unsupportable” a couple of posts in. The OP itself was fine. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/53 "2011-04-17T18:59:34Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’ve really tried to listen to this guy, but his music all sounds pretty much like variations on the same tune. But even if I concede that his music is okay, nobody can say he can sing, and keep a straight face while doing so. Me no hate, but me no like. Hey, in fact I’ve never heard much of the Dave Matthews Band, I was just making a wink to [that post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11080374&postcount=3) by **Argent Towers** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/54 "2011-04-17T19:07:22Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > How old are you? I’ve wondered how the dramatic commercialization of Beatles’ music would effect the subsequent generation of listeners. There is a huge difference between hearing a snippet during a Target commercial and listening to Revolver on a boom-box in the back yard while you and your dad rake leaves (my first exposure). In my experience, the surrounding environment has an enormous impact on which music I enjoy and appreciate. I always thought jazz was noodly and boring until a friend of mine sat me down on a hungover sat morning and explained to me how the artists work off each other. He helped me understand the creative dynamic and now I enjoy listening to some jazz. He said he was 30 earlier in the thread, and said “their rhymes seem simplistic, their lyrics harken back to days where women stayed home and men worked and black people served drinks. I don’t like them, nor do I like the kind of mental imagery they invoke.” By trying to paint them as some type of racist and misogynist band is so completely outside reality that his opinion really is worthless. As for your question of subsequent generations, I am a year younger than him, and actually didn’t discover them until this past decade because I was raised listening almost exlcusively to “redneck music” but now listen to a little bit of everything, \*\*\*including \*\*\*rap and country and it took me a while to get around to them. Here Comes the Sun was my gateway, for what it’s worth, and it hooked me immediately. I believe their reputation to be well-earned. They have some incredibly catchy and meaningful music that transcends their origins, and they’re one my [most played artists](http://www.last.fm/user/Aesiron). ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/55 "2011-04-17T19:39:52Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > Hey, in fact I’ve never heard much of the Dave Matthews Band, I was just making a wink to [that post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11080374&postcount=3) by **Argent Towers** 😃 Funny stuff: somehow I missed the post. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/56 "2011-04-17T19:42:55Z")
It all depends on the way it is said. People have a tendency to unload in an extremely negative and judgmental way about things they don’t like, without regard to how this might be considered insulting to people who feel otherwise. An acquaintence of mine went on and on about how professional wrestling was stupid, the people who liked it were stupid, etc. Sneered at me when I said “hey wait a minute”. Then I see on his facebook page that he likes Rollerderby. :rolleyes: People are quite capable of liking something you don’t like without being classless tasteless morons. But people seem to get it in their heads that what they like is right, and what they don’t like is wrong. Of course, this explains virtually all of human history, including religious and social prohibitions. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/57 "2011-04-18T01:30:53Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > You don’t have to listen to any of it. But if you don’t, then you don’t know anything about it. When you suggest that you don’t like Nirvana becasue you were never an angsty teen, or that you don’t like Buck Owens because you’re not a redneck, you are saying something qualitative about the music. That’s when you get people thinking you know nothing about music. What do you have to “know” about music? I seriously don’t get this. I understand why people are pissed at me for the way I describe certain genres, but I take issue when people suggest I have to “know” anything about music. It’s just sounds and singing people! The reason why I don’t listen to any specific piece of music is always “it doesn’t sound good to me”. Now why that doesn’t sound good could be many things Regarding rap, I hate it, but there’s a couple songs I like. 3 of them are by Eminem, one is California Love by Tupac. Even in those I realize it’s just “talking”, but the beat and melody appeal to me. I like a couple of country songs, but they are by hot women who probably influenced my perspective I simply reject the notion that I have to “know” a music to like it. So what if I am reminded of angsty teenagers if I hear Nirvana? Haven’t you ever thought something about a quote, then someone tells you who said it, and it influenced your reevaluation of it? And we’re not even talking about ambush political quotes where people disguise Hitler’s speeches until you agree with it and they tell you who said it. We’re simply talking about music as entertainment, and due to the people, culture, or political bent of a song, I’m going to like or dislike it. Why’s that wrong? > [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > How old are you? I’ve wondered how the dramatic commercialization of Beatles’ music would effect the subsequent generation of listeners. There is a huge difference between hearing a snippet during a Target commercial and listening to Revolver on a boom-box in the back yard while you and your dad rake leaves (my first exposure). In my experience, the surrounding environment has an enormous impact on which music I enjoy and appreciate. I always thought jazz was noodly and boring until a friend of mine sat me down on a hungover sat morning and explained to me how the artists work off each other. He helped me understand the creative dynamic and now I enjoy listening to some jazz. 31, and I’ve heard the Beatles way before I’ve heard them being used in commercials. I’ll give you one example: I dislike Hard Day’s Night. When I listen to it, it sounds like hippies in the 50’s singing about working hard and going home to their girl-next-door wife. Sleeping like a log? Come on, that just sounds silly to me. I know it’s an expression, but still, it just sounds silly. And I don’t like how their voices and the melody change when they get to the part where they sing “but when I get home to you…”. It just seems like it should have continued the tone from the lines before it. And I’m sorry I didn’t grow up in the 50’s, but saying “the things that you do will make me feel alright” just seems like it should have been changed to something more graphic like blowjobs or something. That’s my hangup, I admit it, but I don’t like the song because of that too. > [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > Oh I get it, you’re another “I listen to everything but country and rap” guy. You are welcome to your opinion, but don’t try to have a music conversation if you’re going to close your mind to a band because of a genre label. Most people who love music eagerly try everything they can get their hands on. Perhaps you don’t really love music, but just like a few bands. That’s probably true, maybe I don’t really love music. My tastes are pretty specific, with small exceptions. I stick to classical music and video game music with no lyrics, or Japense J-pop that I can’t understand. > [@Hades](#): > > He said he was 30 earlier in the thread, and said “their rhymes seem simplistic, their lyrics harken back to days where women stayed home and men worked and black people served drinks. I don’t like them, nor do I like the kind of mental imagery they invoke.” By trying to paint them as some type of racist and misogynist band is so completely outside reality that his opinion really is worthless. I don’t think that the Beatles are racist or misogynistic. I do think that I feel they are a dated 50’s band which takes on the qualities of when they were popular, and I get a 50’s vibe from them that I don’t like, which makes me transfer that quality to their music, which makes me feel like I’m in a time and place where people are racist and misogynistic, which makes me uncomfortable when I listen to their music, which makes me not like it If I could judge all music just by the song itself and not by where it came from or who, then I would, but I don’t think any of us can. I get a greasy feeling when I listen to Nirvana that comes from the greasy hair of its lead singer. I can’t help that so I’m not going to like their music unless it’s really really catchy. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/58 "2011-04-18T02:32:17Z")
You do know the Beatles’ recorded output is from the years '62-70, right? I don’t know why you keep mentioning the '50s. Sounds to me like you’re only familiar with their early, pre-studio-only output. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/59 "2011-04-18T03:02:21Z")
Who actually likes music because it’s ‘good’? Only the rare people who are very musical, have in-depth knowledge, and who value and select for proficiency, technique, and talent in all aspects of a musical performance over the way something _sounds_, I reckon. Musical preferences are a highly subjective personal opinion which has to do with the way any given track sounds to an individual’s ear, and much more with our perception of how a song, a type of music, or a band/artist/group, relates to our social status, contributes to our bonding with other people, and is linked to positive memories in our life. The Beatles are a good example for me because I’ve been exposed to all of their music (my dad has always loved them and my best friend growing up 92-98 was a rabid fan) and never liked them. I know a majority of Americans thinks the Beatles are ‘good’ but what criteria they are judging them by, I can’t comprehend. I hear them often lauded for their ‘songwriting’ abilities. I’m not sure what this even means. Most Beatles songs seem to follow simple formulas already well-established by other artists at that time. I can agree that the Beatles were a pop culture phenomenon and a sweeping and powerful trend for the English speaking world and rock music, but still don’t understand how that makes them objectively _good_. Because so many people have liked them together, is my guess. I do enjoy ‘Blackbird’. Don’t know why, it always caught my ear. Songs I like seem to be almost totally random. I’ve found a good stock answer when people annoy me about music. I tell them ‘I don’t really like music’. And it’s kind of true, I’m only interested in ever listening to the very small number of genres, artists and tracks I have already developed a strong preference for. Everything else is annoying noise. I also have less of an emotional connection to music than most people - I have no memories of where I first heard the bands or tracks that I most enjoy, I don’t have a single memory with a ‘soundtrack’ of what I was listening to and I don’t have memories associated with specific songs, and I don’t often feel emotions other than mild pleasure from hearing my favorite songs (never feel sad from ‘depressing’ songs, amped up from ‘angry songs’, etc). I think I’m a little different in these ways from a lot of people I know, most of whom are much more passionate fans and are more likely to consider music ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Instead of calling something _bad_, I’ll say ‘I don’t like it’ or ‘what is that god-awful caterwauling, why would anyone record themselves making that noise’ etc. It’s just my opinion and it’s silly to pass a blanket judgment that pretends it’s more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/60 "2011-04-18T03:39:35Z")
Everybody’s music tastes suck except mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584.md?page=4)