# Why do \*some\* music fans get so angry... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584 "2011-04-16T04:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/61 "2011-04-18T03:42:48Z")
In my experience, people often mistake well-thought-out opinions for parochial, personal judgments. _Of course_ other people don’t have to like what one person likes, _merely because he holds a certain taste_. Nobody thinks otherwise, and it is totally banal to repeat this. But it just so happens that it is not always mere prejudice to knock those who prefer certain forms of entertainment. For example, if I say that I think people who like boxing are generally stupid, I don’t say that merely because I dislike boxing. I also dislike curling, but I don’t insult the intelligence of those who like curling. I insult the intelligence of those who like boxing because boxing is uniquely violent among major sports, with very high risks of brain injury. I think that favoring such a sport indicates poor judgment. Judgments about art are tricky, because claims about greatness are often ambiguous. Some people think that objective artistic merit exists, and to those people, a claim like “the Kinks were better than Jefferson Airplane” has an objectively correct answer. I get the impression, from this thread, that most people don’t agree that artistic merit objectively exists. I tend to agree, but the view they reject has been defended by some serious philosophers. For example, the philosopher Massimo Pigliucci has defended that stance in conversations at his blog, _Rationally Speaking_. Even if one rejects artistic merit-realism, though, some apparently slanted or parochial remarks about art can turn out to be fairly reasoned. For example, it is simply correct to say that The Beatles are more relevant to the history of popular music than are Led Zeppelin. There is nothing immoral about preferring Led Zeppelin (again, _duh_), just as there is nothing wrong with finding the Korean War more fascinating than World War II. It’s still perfectly reasonable to say that World War II has greater historical importance than the Korean War. The same is true when comparing the historical prominence of The Beatles and Led Zeppelin. I could topple on many similar points. It is not necessarily an overextension of personal judgment to say that a certain type of art follows misguided principals, since artistic principals can be based on incorrect factual claims. For example, Language Poetry takes it as fundamental that language is prior to thought, not the other way around. But language is not, in fact, prior to thought, and so Language Poetry has a misguided principal at its base. We should be wary of overextending our personal biases, of course. But it is also quite common for those who make fair judgment calls to be accused of overextending their personal tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/62 "2011-04-18T03:57:35Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If I could judge all music just by the song itself and not by where it came from or who, then I would, but I don’t think any of us can. I get a greasy feeling when I listen to Nirvana that comes from the greasy hair of its lead singer. I can’t help that so I’m not going to like their music unless it’s really really catchy. I enjoyed Nirvana, but will agree with you that most of the music hasn’t aged well. The “grunge” movement was a critique of a genre (hair bands) on its way out anyhow. Like any critique, it may be interesting at the time, but ten years later no-one gives a shit. I don’t think Cobain had enough time to develop his musical talent completely. There is no way Nirvana will remain relevant, so don’t worry about not liking them. The die hard fans don’t even listen to their albums anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/63 "2011-04-18T06:26:07Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Instead of calling something _bad_, I’ll say ‘I don’t like it’ or ‘what is that god-awful caterwauling, why would anyone record themselves making that noise’ etc. It’s just my opinion and it’s silly to pass a blanket judgment that pretends it’s more than that. IME one of the reasons people get riled up about this subject from both sides of the fence is that many people are not as circumspect as you are being here about crossing the lines between objective and subjective comments about the reason for their like or dislike. One only has to spend about ten minutes reading in Cafe Society to find examples. There are two classic scenarios. People regularly make objective statements to justify their artistic preference that are simply wrong. They often then make the position worse by whining that their incorrect statement was “only my opinion” or that they are being inappropriately criticised for expressing “their opinion” [no, a statement that black is white is not your opinion, it is just factually wrong]. Contrastly, people regularly also make emphatic subjective statements as if they fact without any acknowledgement that their statement was just a matter of taste or opinion. Again, people then often cause ill feeling by implying that criticism is unjustified since it should have been obvious to readers that the statement was “just my opinion”. Yet if one is going to use the rhetorical trick of couching your opinions as fact (for emphasis) then one shouldn’t be surprised if one is called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/64 "2011-04-18T11:48:26Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Who actually likes music because it’s ‘good’? Only the rare people who are very musical, have in-depth knowledge, and who value and select for proficiency, technique, and talent in all aspects of a musical performance over the way something _sounds_, I reckon. I’d hope most people like music because it’s good! I’m not saying that technique is the only thing, but that sufficient technique to play the song you want to play is necessary. Which is why all the autotuned pop crap is, objectively, crap. To clarify, being unable to play more than three chords, or sing more than a couple of notes, is fine if you’re playing punk. It’s objectively bad if you’re doing opera. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/65 "2011-04-18T12:38:22Z")
If it wasn’t for rabid popular music fans, some people would be out of a job, like a notorious music critic for a local alternative newspaper. This guy regularly puts down a ton of bands, many of them famous ones who are past their prime but still touring. Every time he lets the bile flow, without fail a bunch of fans will write in absolutely _outraged_ that he’d dare to diss their musical gods. Why care what he says? C’mon people, it’s not like Fleetwood Mac will dry up and blow away along with all of your memories because one person said they were a palpitating pile of crap. Add to the list of fans who go apoplectic when their favorite is mocked - Neil Diamond (Dave Barry had a funny take on this). As to why some folks take offense to hearing that the Bee Gees stink, well that’s just one of life’s continued mysteries. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/66 "2011-04-18T13:24:10Z")
Fuck Dave Matthews, and his little band too. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/67 "2011-04-18T13:50:21Z")
I think I figured it out. Music is personal. The personal is political. The center of the political universe is Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C is Hollywood for ugly people. All the ugly people be quiet. When people criticize your music, it’s like they’re saying, “Shut up, ugmo!” ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/68 "2011-04-18T20:24:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > An acquaintence of mine went on and on about how professional wrestling was stupid, the people who liked it were stupid, etc. Sneered at me when I said “hey wait a minute”. Then I see on his facebook page that he likes Rollerderby. :rolleyes: [hijack] Pro wrestling is athletic entertainment, in which bouts are staged and outcomes are predetermined. The current incarnation of rollerderby is an actual sport with leagues, teams, and seasons. Aside from a shared taste for tight outfits and silly stage names, I’m not seeing why you would compare the two. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/69 "2011-04-18T21:22:41Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > [hijack] Pro wrestling is athletic entertainment, in which bouts are staged and outcomes are predetermined. The current incarnation of rollerderby is an actual sport with leagues, teams, and seasons. Aside from a shared taste for tight outfits and silly stage names, I’m not seeing why you would compare the two. [/hijack] One is a dramatic simulation of violence as a means of entertainment, telling a story of domination, rivalry and revenge. The other is a bunch of ugly women playing NASCAR on skates. See how that works? It all depends on your point of view, and how negative and/or insulting you are in the description of that which you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/70 "2011-04-18T22:58:50Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > You do know the Beatles’ recorded output is from the years '62-70, right? I don’t know why you keep mentioning the '50s. Sounds to me like you’re only familiar with their early, pre-studio-only output. I have no idea when they actually made their music. I get the impression that it’s the 50’s. I was only off by one decade or so! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/71 "2011-04-18T23:10:01Z")
“Led Zeppelin didn’t write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees.” -Wayne Campbell > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have no idea when they actually made their music. I get the impression that it’s the 50’s. I was only off by one decade or so! 😉 Also, you only seem familiar with their early work. If you’re going to criticize something, at least KNOW what you’re criticizing and why. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/72 "2011-04-18T23:33:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have no idea when they actually made their music. I get the impression that it’s the 50’s. I was only off by one decade or so! 😉 Well, I think you could agree there’s no way [these](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3NcwfOBzQ) [two](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3jrWVp2L7U) could have been made in the '50s. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/73 "2011-04-19T00:24:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If you’re going to criticize something, at least KNOW what you’re criticizing and why. Piffle. I (and you, I’m willing to bet) will continue to criticize whatever I don’t like, regardless of my actual knowledge of the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/74 "2011-04-19T02:15:46Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > Even if one rejects artistic merit-realism, though, some apparently slanted or parochial remarks about art can turn out to be fairly reasoned. For example, it is simply correct to say that The Beatles are more relevant to the history of popular music than are Led Zeppelin. There is nothing immoral about preferring Led Zeppelin (again, _duh_), just as there is nothing wrong with finding the Korean War more fascinating than World War II. It’s still perfectly reasonable to say that World War II has greater historical importance than the Korean War. The same is true when comparing the historical prominence of The Beatles and Led Zeppelin. I don’t think it’s as simple as you’re making it out to be here. The Beatles were unquestionably more popular than Led Zeppelin, but Led Zeppelin was arguably more influential – and I say this as someone who dislikes Led Zeppelin. I can’t remember what I was reading that made this point, it might have been something in _Rolling Stone_, but if you look at which older rock acts are cited as influences by later musicians then The Beatles don’t come up that often. Led Zeppelin or relatively obscure acts like The Velvet Underground or even The Stooges are more likely to be credited as an inspiration. Of course it’s entirely possible that some musicians are just refusing to admit they were inspired by The Beatles because they don’t want to seem too “mainstream”, but I do feel like I’ve heard more Led Zeppelin-esque songs by later bands than Beatles-esque songs. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/75 "2011-04-19T02:48:04Z")
Who did more to popularize modality and other hallmarks of psychedelic rock other than the Beatles? (which is not to say invent, I know several artists pre-date the Beatles on that count.) Because if they are one the prime influences on the structure and composition of p-rock (and not just the feeling or culture), then they vie with Led Zeppelin themselves for influence over heavy metal\*, as metal was itself influence by psychedelia. Now, who is overrated, Led Zep or the Beatles? I’d say the Beatles because I like the bands around equally but one obviously gets more good press. But I’m not about to deny the Beatles’ influence, which seemed like it was going to wane from 1973-2003\*\*, but has been on the rise\*\*\* after that with the rise of melodic indie. \*Even if you ignore “she’s so heavy” 🙂 \*\* With occasional slips back into popular influence such as the rise in popularity of power pop around 1980\*\*\*\* \*\*\*Within the rock world, that is. I’m afraid rock as a genre is declining in popularity so I am afraid that the Beatles are like the biggest kid in kindergarten when measuring musical influence these days. \*\*\*\* Although power pop is a remarkably stable genre. It seems there’s room for only 2 or 3 popular power pop artists who get replaced once every 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/76 "2011-04-19T12:50:12Z")
Led Zeppelin was “arguably” more influential the Beatles, but that’s not a winnable argument. I can only speak from experience, but when I do get annoyed it isn’t because somebody says, “I never cared for the Beatles,” it’s because they say, “The Beatles suck, they’re so overrated.” Same with readers who say “Dickens is boring.” It’s one thing to have different taste, something else to speak from some glib authoritative position as if one’s tastes are facts, particularly when one is only passingly familiar with whatever it is they are talking about. It’s a little dishonest to say “The Beatles suck, they are so overrated,” and when somebody gets annoyed dismiss them as a clueless git who simply has different taste. You didn’t make a statement about your taste, you made a statement of pretentious musical authority that implies the other person isn’t as musically enlightened as you are. I try to make I statements when expressing my tastes, usually embedding it in the extent of my experience. “I bought Seven Nation Army and tried to like it, but I just never felt whatever it is you feel about The White Stripes.” Etc. People can still get extremely annoyed, but it is honest and autobiographical, not smug and authoritative. I find that far harder to do with books, but I still try. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/77 "2011-04-19T13:22:49Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Now, who is overrated, Led Zep or the Beatles? I’d say the Beatles because I like the bands around equally but one obviously gets more good press. But I’m not about to deny the Beatles’ influence, which seemed like it was going to wane from 1973-2003\*\*, but has been on the rise\*\*\* after that with the rise of melodic indie. This is pretty much my thought. Led Zeppelin had a greater direct influence on individual bands, but the Beatles changed the whole course of popular music\*. And I say that as somebody who _hates_ the Beatles. I think you can make much stronger arguments for The Kinks and The Who than Zep, anyway. \*you can simplify this point a bit by looking at heavy metal. _Everyone_ cites Priest as an influence. Most bands cite Sabbath, and to a lesser extent Zeppelin and Deep Purple. But without Sabbath (and possibly Zep and Purple) Priest wouldn’t have existed in the first place). ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/78 "2011-04-19T15:35:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > One is a dramatic simulation of violence as a means of entertainment, telling a story of domination, rivalry and revenge. > > The other is a bunch of ugly women playing NASCAR on skates. > > See how that works? It all depends on your point of view, and how negative and/or insulting you are in the description of that which you don’t like. I wasn’t being insulting about either one. I took your point as being that pro wrestling is pretty much the same as rollerderby, so it’s silly to hate on one but love the other. I was just pointing out that they’re pretty different, really, so I wasn’t sure why liking derby would have anything to do with disliking pro wrestling. One is scripted, the other isn’t. One is mostly men, the other mostly women. One is largely corporate, at least at a national level (although regional/backyard wrestling leagues certainly exist). The other is more grassroots. It just struck me as an odd comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/79 "2011-04-19T17:25:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The other is a bunch of ugly women playing NASCAR on skates. I can understand not liking Heart, but your critique seems a bit over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584/80 "2011-04-19T18:38:25Z")
> [@CheeseDonkey](#): > > Why do _some_ music fans get so angry…when you don’t like or speak unkindly (as perceived by them) about music they like? (and it’s a big _some_ with certain band fandoms). /rant People get very defensive about the things they care about. I don’t think this is unique to music. There is a great distinction between actually knowing about an act and making statements vs. not knowing an act and making statements. Often, a person will bash or speak unkindly of a band I enjoy without being able to name more than one or two songs or completely mischaracterizes the bands sound to the point that it’s clear they havent even listened to them. If the person speaks unkindly of a band I enjoy without knowing much about them, I believe the question shouldn’t be why do I get angry and should instead be, why are you stating an opinion on something you know nothing about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-music-fans-get-so-angry/578584.md?page=5)