# why do some place names take a "the"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733 "2019-09-24T00:41:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/41 "2019-09-24T19:51:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Y Where’s the name confusion, and how does adding “the” in front of the name change it? The confusion comes from when you use the initials only which brings Oregon and Oklahoma schools into the mix. In 1986 THEy purposely starting referring to themselves as THE Ohio State University in order to differentiate themselves. It’s not a clean answer, but that is their logic. When scores are spoken I’ve generally hear them say THE full name. But when shown on a board they still show up as OSU vs OSU. I think it’s just BS myself too, but it’s their spin on BS. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/42 "2019-09-24T20:06:30Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > I’ve had Ukrainians tell me that adding [the] is wrong and I’m more inclined to listen to them. And they do have a point, after all nobody says “The England”. I always understood it to be the difference between the term for a region “the Ukraine, in the sense of its original term of 'borderlands/marshes”, and the proper name of a nation- i.e. Ukraine without the “the”. Collective noun vs. proper name. A contrived example might be if the Hill Country of Texas seceded and became their own state- you might speak of “the Hill Country” in the sense of the region/geographic feature, but you’d talk about “Hill Country” if you were talking about the new state. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/43 "2019-09-24T21:19:14Z")
Two other language article cities in Oregon are La Grande and La Pine. At least La Grande, like The Dalles, have a French origin. The Dalles is often confused with Dallas, OR by outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/44 "2019-09-24T22:25:07Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Two other language article cities in Oregon are La Grande and La Pine. At least La Grande, like The Dalles, have a French origin. > > The Dalles is often confused with Dallas, OR by outsiders. If we go French, then go to Des Moines. > [@](#): > > It was incorporated on September 22, 1851, as Fort Des Moines, which was shortened to “Des Moines” in 1857. It is on and named after the Des Moines River, which likely was adapted from the early French name, Rivière des Moines, meaning “River of the Monks” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Passing\_Through](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Just\_Passing\_Through](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Passing_Through)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/45 "2019-09-25T15:06:44Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > I’ve had Ukrainians tell me that adding [the] is wrong and I’m more inclined to listen to them. And they do have a point, after all nobody says “The England”. I have Ukrainian relatives, and you are correct. You don’t go to “The” Ukraine, just as you don’t go to “The” Canada or “The” Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/46 "2019-09-25T15:49:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, there are other state universities/college in Ohio, but there’s only one Ohio State University. Where’s the name confusion, and how does adding “the” in front of the name change it? When one says “Ohio State University” or simply, “Ohio State,” there is only one school that comes to mind, as far as my experience goes. It distinguishes “The Ohio State University” from “an Ohio state university.” OSU filed for and was [denied a trademark](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-state-university-trademark-the-osu-cant-trademark-the-word-the-patent-office-says/) for the word “The.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/47 "2019-09-25T16:22:28Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > The worst I’ve seen like this is restaurants that offer a dish “with au jus sauce” But was it just au jus or was it a sauce made with au jus? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/48 "2019-09-25T17:24:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And let’s not get into “the La Brea tar pits.” 😉 Yes, that’s a sticky situation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/49 "2019-09-25T17:33:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What about “The Hague”? > And this is why Southern Californians [use “the” with freeways](https://www.kcet.org/shows/lost-la/the-5-the-101-the-405-why-southern-californians-love-saying-the-before-freeway-numbers). Incidentally I was not offered a job in Denver because I called the Colorado interstate “the 25” I was told I sounded like I was from Los Angeles and I would not get the job. Really? Coming from LA disqualifies you? Any company with their head that far up it’s ass you dont want to work for anyway. (Sorry Cad, you wore white after labor day, we’re gonna have to let you go…") Anyway Norcals also use 'the" but dont stress it as much, it’s like THEE vs thuh and only on some freeways like I5. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/50 "2019-09-27T18:30:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río Porciúncula …del Río de la Porciúncula… Yes, I see it with different parts of the missing bit in different sources. But the Porzioncula or Porciúncula is the chapel in Italy where Francis Assisi started his brotherhood; the Spanish grammar doesn’t make sense without the missing bits (specially when people keep the preposition and drop the article). Now, why did the priest who founded it like his adjectival clauses so much, search me, but he sure did. > [@zimaane](#): > > It’s more common in Spanish than in English, but just as arbitrary. You say El Peru and El Paraguay, but just Chile and Argentina, for example. To confuse matters more, people will often sometimes omit the article even if it is commonly used. Old usages, which are disappearing (I can’t recall the last time I heard anybody use those two articles without a preposition “de” in front, in which case they’re a matter of making pronuntiation easier, like those feminine nouns which begin by a- and take masculine articles); Argentina also sometimes gets the article in old usages. ---
**Author:** ![Limmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Limmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Limmin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/51 "2019-09-27T19:55:16Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > [Nope](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dells_of_the_Wisconsin_River). I mean, I guess some people drop the article, but most don’t. > > I lived in Madison, WI for about a decade. Madison is the nearest city to the Dells. Colloquially, we just said “the Dells.” You’re right that the city is officially “Wisconsin Dells,” but one commonly hears “The Wisconsin Dells.” Common usage can differ from official usage. > > I mean, Apple religiously drops articles for their products, talking about the amazing camera performance of iPhone 11, but I always use an article in brazen defiance of Apple’s PR stylebook. > > (Coincidentally, I moved from Madison to Portland, OR—each city is roughly the same distance from its state’s dalles/dells). > > ETA: Yes, you made a distinction between the feature name (which takes the article) and the town name (which officially doesn’t). But my point is that the distinction is a lot blurrier in everyday usage than your post implies. Interesting…I too am from Madison but never heard it called “The Wisconsin Dells.” I heard “The Dells” and “Wisconsin Dells” only. Maybe we were doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/52 "2019-09-27T19:59:01Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > ‘Ukraine’ means borderland or marshes so if you’re talking about it ‘the’ is necessary because English. The Philippines is bizarre though, maybe because it’s plural? > > Arbitrary reasons in general I think though. > > Spanish has this as well for what it’s worth. In Spanish the city is always called ‘la habana’, or ‘the Havana’ and I have never understood why. It is because of Spanish grammar in both cases, because La Habana was founded as Villa de San Cristóbal de La Habana, and Villa is feminine and requires “La”. Tha Bahamas were la Mancomunidad de las Bahamas (English: Commonwealth of the Bahamas), when you take away the Commonwealth, the “the” remains. In Spanish you also say El Perú (formerly El Virreinato del Perú, today República del Perú), La India, La Cochinchina (what today is called Vietnam) and many more. Things can change: what used to be La China Mandarina is today simply China, or La República Popular China (PRC in English). Some allow both: Japón or El (reino de) Japón. In French Countries have an article: L’Allemagne, L’Espagne, L’Italie, La France; cities do not. Same with Italian. German also has some articles: die Türkei (Turkey), die Schweiz (Switzerland), das Vereinigte Königreich (the United Kingdom), die Vereinigten Staaten (the USA). But usually not: Spanien, Italien, Peru, Mexiko. It is mostly for historical reasons, places were once named differently and as part of the name was later dropped, some articles remained. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/53 "2019-09-27T20:21:29Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > …del Río de la Porciúncula… > > Yes, I see it with different parts of the missing bit in different sources. But the Porzioncula or Porciúncula is the chapel in Italy where Francis Assisi started his brotherhood; the Spanish grammar doesn’t make sense without the missing bits (specially when people keep the preposition and drop the article). Now, why did the priest who founded it like his adjectival clauses so much, search me, but he sure did. [Nobody knows for sure](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-mar-26-me-name26-story.html). > [@](#): > > The early settlers meant to name the town after angels; that much is known. But for more than 75 years, local historians have been quarreling over its actual moniker. > > Some contend it was El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora de los Angeles. > > Others assert it was El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reyna de los Angeles. > > Or perhaps it was El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora de los Angeles de la Porciuncula. Or El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reyna de los Angeles del Rio Porciuncula. Or maybe El Pueblo de la Reina de los Angeles Sobre el Rio de Porciuncula. Or Pueblo del Rio de Nuestra Senora la Reyna de los Angeles de Porciuncula. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/54 "2019-09-27T22:52:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > My understanding, perhaps from a previous thread, . . . Four previous threads (at least): [Why do we say "the" in front of some countries? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616909)"] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=332975](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=332975) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=474365](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=474365) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=270341](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=270341) Not that that’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/55 "2019-09-27T23:20:25Z")
Only the first URL is valid. For the remaining three, the URL is incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733/56 "2019-09-27T23:39:17Z")
Sorry about that. > **[Why do we say "the" in front of some countries?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616909)** > > For example, we say “the United States,” “the Ukraine,” “the Sudan,” et cetera. How come we put “the” in front of some countries, but not others? I’ve never heard of anyone refer to it as “the Canada” or “the France,” the example. > **[The Ukraine](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332975)** > > Why is the Ukraine called the Ukraine? What does “Ukraine” mean? > **[Two Questions about The Gambia](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=474365)** > > I’m writing on topic of The Gambia currently and I can tell you lots of things about developments there over the last, say, fifty years. There’s two things, though, that I, for the life of me, couldn’t tell you, which is why I’m asking here. Why... > **[The use of "the" in place names.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=270341)** > > This question was asked of me by my 12 year old son, and I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m turning it over to the teeming millions. Some place names are preceeded by “the” but not others. For example we say \*the \* Pacific Ocean, \*the \* Brazos... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-place-names-take-a-the/840733.md?page=2)