# Why do some religious Jews eat pork and shrimp? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108 "2005-05-23T16:00:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/21 "2005-05-24T13:25:44Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The same one that Catholics provide for using birth control? This is not the same thing at all. Catholics using birth control are consciously repudiating a dictate of their faith. Reform Jews who do not keep kosher are _following_ the dictates of their faith by making a legitimate choice consistent with the techings of Reform rabbis. Birth control using Catholics are breaking the law of the Church. Non-kosher Reform Jews are not. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/22 "2005-05-24T14:00:59Z")
“Every man is his own doctor of divinity” – Robert Louis Stevenson ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/23 "2005-05-24T14:24:26Z")
> [@adirondack\_mike](#): > > BTW there are people who keep a kosher home but will eat nonkosher outside the house. I will guess 1)because some treyf just tastes good or 2) as a matter of convenience - such as eating at friend or neighbor’s house or a function at a nonkosher restaurant, etc. I know convenience is not the right word but I can’t at the moment think of a better one. This is also common amongst Indian-American Hindus and beef. There is also a cultural tendency for middle-class Hindu women, inside and outside of India, to avoid beef, whereas middle-class Hindu men are more likely to indulge, especially outside the home. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/24 "2005-05-24T14:27:11Z")
> [@LostCause](#): > > I think that if a Christian decides to honour any ‘legal’ rules, he does it for God, and it’s a business strictly between himself and God, Having read a recent discussion on Sen. Santorum’s failure to read the Bible, and how that’s perfectly understandable given that he is a Catholic, I am under the impression that it would be heresy for a Catholic to seek a such personal understanding of scripture and religious rules. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/25 "2005-05-24T14:37:02Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Having read a recent discussion on Sen. Santorum’s failure to read the Bible, and how that’s perfectly understandable given that he is a Catholic, I am under the impression that it would be heresy for a Catholic to seek a such personal understanding of scripture and religious rules. Catholicism and post-Protestant Christanity may shares the same root, but later branches off differently. I am more familiar with the post-Protestant Christanity branch. Protestant Christanity usually (note ‘usually’) encourages Christians to meet God on a personal basis. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/26 "2005-05-24T14:51:40Z")
> [@fighting ignorant](#): > > I hear you can milk anything with nipples You can try, but I might shoot ya! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/27 "2005-05-24T15:08:04Z")
> [@fighting ignorant](#): > > I hear you can milk anything with nipples FWIW, chickens aren’t mammals… no nipples. I suppose I could go outside and grab one of my hens, riffle through her chest feathers and take a picture, but that would be excessively silly :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/28 "2005-05-24T15:54:47Z")
Re Chickens And Other Fowl Any decent rabbi or Talmudic scholar will tell you that _technically_ it is acceptable to eat chicken with dairy products. However, a long Jewish tradition (tra-dit-ion!) prohibits it. It’s easier to seperate all meat from dairy products than to seperate some meats from dairy products. Not eating fowl with dairy also prevents the possibility of mistaking a prohibited hamburger with cheese for an allowed turkeyburger with cheese and eating a forbidden food. Back To The OP I can’t remember which sage said “It is better to believe and not keep the commandments, than to keep the commandments and not believe.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/29 "2005-05-24T16:14:22Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > This is not the same thing at all. Catholics using birth control are consciously repudiating a dictate of their faith. Reform Jews who do not keep kosher are _following_ the dictates of their faith by making a legitimate choice consistent with the techings of Reform rabbis. Birth control using Catholics are breaking the law of the Church. Non-kosher Reform Jews are not. > > –Cliffy How about non-kosher Conservative and Orthodox Jews? They exist. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/30 "2005-05-24T16:21:24Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > How about non-kosher Conservative and Orthodox Jews? They exist. Conservative Judaism covers a lot of ground from almost Orthodox (some Jews actually classify themselves as Conservadox) to almost Reform. I’m stunned to hear of Orthodox Jews who no longer keep kosher, but continue to classify themselves as Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/31 "2005-05-24T17:46:14Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This is also common amongst Indian-American Hindus and beef. There is also a cultural tendency for middle-class Hindu women, inside and outside of India, to avoid beef, whereas middle-class Hindu men are more likely to indulge, especially outside the home. Wow! Sounds like a couple I know… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/32 "2005-05-24T18:36:34Z")
Thanks for all answers. A former co-worker who grew up orthodox (but downsized majorly as a young woman- she was older by the time I knew her) said that as a child the only meal she could order in a mainstream restaurant was fish as there were few regulations as to how it is cooked or killed or cleaned. Is this true? If an orthodox Jew were to go to a mainstream restaurant (i.e. one that makes no attempt to serve kosher food), what would his/her best options be (assume the restaurant offers standard American fair). ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/33 "2005-05-24T18:48:13Z")
Re Fish OTTOMH, yep. Cows, sheep, and fowl all have to killed and prepared in a specific way. But, there aren’t any rules governing the killing and preparation of fish. A fish must have fins and scales to be kosher, but that’s it. If an Orthodox Jew is willing to eat in a nonkosher restaurant (many are not) fish or a vegetarian meal are the only options. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/34 "2005-05-24T19:07:31Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If an Orthodox Jew is willing to eat in a nonkosher restaurant (many are not) fish or a vegetarian meal are the only options. Not really good options, if it’s a hot meal, as the plates are probably not going to be kosher. Maybe it they’re cold dishes, it would be ok. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/35 "2005-05-24T19:11:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > If an orthodox Jew were to go to a mainstream restaurant (i.e. one that makes no attempt to serve kosher food), what would his/her best options be (assume the restaurant offers standard American fair). Not Orthodox, but do keep kosher, and do go to non-kosher restaurants. Mr Neville and I order fish (if we can determine that it’s not a non-kosher fish like catfish) or vegetarian meals at restaurants. We often ask the waiter if the dish has chicken stock or any other meat products in it. We wouldn’t order meat or poultry in a restaurant, even if we knew the dish had no dairy products in it, because we only eat kosher meat and poultry. Fish, vegetables, fruit, grains, and dairy products, however, don’t have to be kosher-certified to be kosher (at least to our standards- some people probably would disagree on at least some of those). We also drink non-kosher-certified wine. We have very few problems finding things to eat in restaurants in the Bay Area, though come to think of it we don’t go to many restaurants that serve standard American fare. We will usually look at a menu before we go into a restaurant, if we can, to see how many choices we’d have if we went there, and if they sound good. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/36 "2005-05-24T19:15:03Z")
I’ve heard (but cannot confirm) that PORk is readily available in israel…under the euphemism “white steak”. Is this true? Wouldn’t that be quite insulting to the orthodox citizens? Also, chinese food 9with its reliance upon pork): I have heard that there are "kosher’ chinese restaurants…what are they offering? ;j ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/37 "2005-05-24T19:15:57Z")
You also couldn’t be sure that chicken broth or something wasn’t used to prepare “vegetarian” dishes. Of course these are the same problems that vegetarian Hindus face in restaurants. In India, you can be sure that a restaurant calling itself “vegetarian” or “pure vegetarian” is the real thing. I’m sure that’s also the case of kosher restaurants, but those are hard to find outside of New York and Israel. I had an Orthodox Jewish friend who went to graduate school in Arkansas. It was very hard for him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/38 "2005-05-24T19:18:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I’ve heard (but cannot confirm) that PORk is readily available in israel…under the euphemism “white steak”. Is this true? Wouldn’t that be quite insulting to the orthodox citizens? Why should it be insulting? If it’s not clear that “white steak” is non-kosher then that might be fraudulent. But if you’re not being tricked into eating it, why? So far as I know, Israel does not incorporate religious law into its civil system. > [@](#): > > Also, chinese food (with its reliance upon pork): I have heard that there are "kosher’ chinese restaurants…what are they offering? ;j Dishes that don’t have pork in them, I presume? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/39 "2005-05-24T19:28:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, chinese food with its reliance upon pork: I have heard that there are "kosher’ chinese restaurants…what are they offering? [Plenty](http://www.glattwok.com/html/takeout.html). For most dishes that are pork-based in non-Kosher Chinese restaurants, Kosher restaurants will substitute veal. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108/40 "2005-05-24T19:28:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > chinese food 9with its reliance upon pork): I have heard that there are "kosher’ chinese restaurants…what are they offering? ;j There are a couple of possibilities. Bear in mind that a kosher restaurant generally serves meat dishes or dairy dishes, not both: 1. It’s a meat restaurant, that offers things like Mongolian beef, sweet & sour chicken, et cetera (but no pork dishes). 2. It’s a vegetarian Chinese restaurant, that offers imitation meat dishes made from wheat gluten, soy, or something similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-some-religious-jews-eat-pork-and-shrimp/305108.md?page=3)