# Why do the Israelis build settlements? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273 "2011-07-25T15:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/21 "2011-07-25T21:14:02Z")
When I was a punk kid in high school, I had a brilliant idea. I knew I never wanted to work in a cubicle, fit in a corporate structure or otherwise sell out. I knew this in my heart. But how could I trust future Sven? How could I know I wasn’t going to give up on all that? How could I keep future Sven from selling out the dreams of now Sven? My theoretical solution? An offensive facial tattoo. It’d make it so I couldn’t even consider a mainstream job. It’d force me to stay 100% committed to the life plan I had- I wouldn’t have another option. I could force my teenage idealism to be a deciding factor for the rest of my life. It might even feel so seamless that it didn’t feel like I was giving up options. When you have an offensive facial tattoo long enough, you stop living in the world of options available to the non facial tattooed. You have your own complete planet of bicycle messengers, bartenders and indie filmmakers The other options fade out of your reality as it becomes all you know and can know. It’s a different kind of long game. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/22 "2011-07-25T21:27:08Z")
Its a form of ethnic cleansing, without all the killing, nothing more, nothing less. Problem for Israel is always going to be demographics, its one reason, among others, why Israel offered settlement to Eastern Europeans following the collapse of the Communist bloc. Nothing is inevitable, and this policy may or may not work - only time will tell. As for who is right or wrong - plenty of both to go around. Look all around the worls, from the US, through to South Americas, and just about every colony, there a has been some sort of enthnic crushing and forced deposession of territories. Its gone on for thousands of years, we only see a small part of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/23 "2011-07-25T21:41:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Perhaps it’s obvious to you…it’s not obvious to me, and pretty obviously not to the majority of Israelis either. Have you checked the date stamp lately? Consider when this all started, then consider when the Israelis actually won the various OTs under discussion. It hasn’t been a year or two…it’s been decades. > > So, no…it’s not obvious at all, despite your use of the :dubious: smiley… Exactly. It is obvious **now** even if it was not quite so obvious in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/24 "2011-07-25T21:44:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What is in it for Israel to not settle the lands they won through right of conquest? The Post-WWII international order is based on the assumption that “right of conquest” is meaningless and confers no legitimate claim to territory. Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/25 "2011-07-25T21:47:38Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Its a form of ethnic cleansing, without all the killing, nothing more, nothing less. No, it would be if Palestinians were being driven **out** of Israeli-held territory, which some extreme parties in Israeli politics demand. What is going on in the OTs is more in the nature of ethnic oppression/immiseration/marginalization. More like what the Apartheid regime did to nonwhite South Africans than what America did to the Indian nations. The difference is in the numbers – those of the Palestinians in the WB are not diminishing. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/26 "2011-07-25T22:46:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Were the Palestinians any less provoked when Israel wasn’t pushing settlements? Did not settling prevent the various Arab neighbors from attacking Israel? When haven’t the Israelis been settling the West Bank? It’s been going on for nearly 40 years. That’s 40 years during which they might otherwise have gotten Arab attitudes to evolve (more than they have). > [@](#): > > What is in it for Israel to not settle the lands they won through right of conquest? Where is the benefit? Dude, they’re _being evil!_ There’s a _moral_ dimension to this issue. > [@](#): > > If they didn’t build in the OT, would this magically make the Palestinians come to the negotiating table with a serious intent to halt the violence and forge a lasting peace? Not magically, but eventually. More than 10 years of a settlement-free environment was required. > [@](#): > > The Israelis completely abandoned Gaza, ceding it to the Palestinians and forcibly removing Israeli settlers (who were voting citizens in Israel)…has this sparked a joyful and spontaneous push for peace and puppies? You think the Palestinians can’t tell the difference between the West Bank and Gaza and just Gaza? Did the Israelis make it clear to the Palestinian people that, depending how they react to this initial handover, there will be more settlement removals forthcoming? Or were they left with an air of, “That’s all you get, suckers!”? > [@](#): > > Where is this land that’s recognized as Israeli? Recognized by whom? The Palestinians? How about by the United States? How about by the entire rest of the world? How about by the Israeli government itself? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Israel is a democracy, so what’s popular with voters becomes public policy. There doesn’t seem to be any urgent need to step on the voters, since it seems unlikely that anything would make the Palestinians feel better about Israel. How much time do Israelis who want to keep the entire West Bank and Palestinians who want to destroy all of Israel spend talking to each other face-to-face? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/27 "2011-07-25T23:09:31Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > why Israel offered settlement to Eastern Europeans following the collapse of the Communist bloc. Same reason they rescued the Ethiopian Jews, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/28 "2011-07-25T23:22:57Z")
What we’re seeing is modern-day Manifest Destiny. It happened here, in North America. We expanded and fought, called the enemies savages and heartless for going after women and children and tried to make them look like the bad guys. Then we went all balls out and obliterated them to the best of our ability. The remnants, we pushed onto reservations and brokered treaties with that we failed to honor. We knew we had all the power and they had none. So what were they going to do? But things are different this time. The Europeans just kept coming and coming, while the Native Americans’ numbers declined and declined. You do not have this situation in Israel. There will never be more Jews in that part of the hood than Muslims, even if all of NYC and Boca Raton migrated over there. Never. So I too wonder what the long term plan is. Are they going to whip out a mega flashy-thing to make everyone forget that they really haven’t annexed the land they’ve settled in? Have they prepared to compensate people that have been displaced? If full sovereignty is out and citizenship is out, then what is left? Are they waiting for all those people to just give up and make their own Trail of Tears? Where are they going to go? To a country that doesn’t want them either? That’s what I don’t understand. What is your run-of-the-mill Joe Muhammed supposed to do? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/29 "2011-07-25T23:23:42Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Lasting peace is (1) worth having and (2) impossible so long as the settlements exist. > > It’s impossible even if the settlements disappear tomorrow. The issue is now, and always will be, the mere existence of the State of Israel. That Egypt and Jordan had the foresight to make a lasting peace doesn’t eliminate the immense ill-will that the Arabs have for Israel. Wait a second. First you say that lasting peace is intrinsically impossible because of Arab ill-will towards Israel. Then you acknowledge that Egypt and Jordan have maintained a lasting peace with Israel **despite** persistent ill-will towards Israel among their populations. If your second statement is true, then clearly, innate popular antagonism towards Israel isn’t “the issue”, in the sense of being the ONLY factor that shapes Arab countries’ policies towards Israel. So I’m not convinced that Israel’s settlements policy is as immaterial as you seem to be claiming when it comes to affecting the chances for lasting peace in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/30 "2011-07-25T23:29:35Z")
Revenge for the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/31 "2011-07-25T23:34:42Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Revenge for the Holocaust. No, a place to go if it happens again, like the above mentioned Ethiopian Jews. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/32 "2011-07-25T23:35:52Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What is your run-of-the-mill Joe Muhammed supposed to do? Perhaps he could encourage his government to recognize the existence of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/33 "2011-07-25T23:40:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, a place to go if it happens again, like the above mentioned Ethiopian Jews. 🙂 Putting the bulk of the world’s Jews (not really, but that was the Zionist idea, wasn’t it?) in **one place,** and that place surrounded by enemies, doesn’t sound like a good way to prevent another Holocaust. If they want to be safe they should all move to Europe and the U.S. and Canada and Australia. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/34 "2011-07-25T23:44:29Z")
Yeah, because it’s not like anything bad ever happened to the Jews in modern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/35 "2011-07-25T23:49:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah, because it’s not like anything bad ever happened to the Jews in modern Europe. Why do the Israelis build settlements? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/36 "2011-07-25T23:50:43Z")
Brilliant factual rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/37 "2011-07-25T23:52:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, a place to go if it happens again, like the above mentioned Ethiopian Jews. 🙂 _Settlements_ (accurately ‘Looting’), not Israel itself, a silly mistake there. Israel is for safety. The settlements are a place to kill Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/38 "2011-07-25T23:55:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps he could encourage his government to recognize the existence of Israel. Put yourself in an average Palestinian’s shoes. Let’s say he has no problem with Israel’s existence. He just wants a country and a government that he can claim as his own, that can provide basic services and protections, and not have to worry about blockades and warfare he personally didn’t provoke or cause. What is he supposed to do? Write a letter to his local Hamas leader? Have you ever written a letter to your congress critter and really expected anything to happen from it? From Israeli sympathizers, I only hear a bunch of “It sucks to me them. But let’s have a Zionist party! Yippee!” But then when something bad happens in a settlement, or a suicide bomber explodes somewhere, we’re all supposed to feel real bad and hate the Palestinians for fucking things up yet again. And if somewhere dares to point out the obvious, then that person is against Israel, or worse. I guess I’m feeling like Europeans did when the early Americans were getting torn up by the Native Americans. “Yeah, sucks to be them. But no one forced their asses to sit on that hornet’s nest.” The Jews deserve Israel just as much as the Palestinians do, which is to say, no one is entitled to that land by right. It’s all by might. So if your side does some punching to get what it wants, you can’t run home and cry when the other side punches back, no matter how dirty they fight. Especially if you’re fighting dirty too and not even trying to hide it. That’s Street 101. And I just assumed everyone had taken this class, but apparently they have not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/39 "2011-07-25T23:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] he Post-WWII international order is based on the assumption that “right of conquest” is meaningless and confers no legitimate claim to territory. Isn’t it? [/QUOTE] What do you base this on? There is no ‘right of conquest’, per se, but obviously if there is a war and territory is occupied, reality stays reality. No? We didn’t give Iraq back to Saddam et al…we forced them to change their entire government structure as well as imposing our collective rule on them while we made them get their shit together to our satisfaction. If we had decided to just annex Iraq or install a puppet (as some on this board predicted) then what was going to stop us from doing so, as long as we were prepared to pay the price of continued occupation?? There is nothing in international law, afaik, that says that Israel has to give back the territory it captured from Jordan, Syria or Egypt…obviously, since they haven’t done so (except some territory they captured from Egypt, but I believe that was voluntary)…unless you have some evidence to the contrary? I mean, hypothetically if there IS such an international ‘law’ then it’s not very effective, since, you know, Israel is still occupying that territory decades later, and I’m not seeing any sort of resolution, giving territory back-wise, a-happenin any time soon. This situation has been going on since before I was born, must of the territory in question was captured when I was still a kid or teen ager, and my guess is I’ll die and Israel will still be there building settlements. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/40 "2011-07-26T00:00:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Brilliant factual rebuttal. You’re the one who is always claiming to know what’s what with Israel. Why do the Israelis build settlements? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273.md?page=3)