# Why do the Israelis build settlements? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273 "2011-07-25T15:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/61 "2011-07-26T03:46:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … > Of course Zionism isn’t in any way the moral equivalent of Nazism… Tell it to the Israelis: Why do the Israelis build settlements? _"Undiluted evil: It’s **their** turn._" ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/62 "2011-07-26T03:49:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If that was the case, shouldn’t they be building settlements in Germany?.. Iraq; US revenge for September 11. Same difference. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/63 "2011-07-26T03:56:45Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Tell it to the Israelis: > > Why do the Israelis build settlements? > > _"Undiluted evil: It’s **their** turn._" Shame on you, too. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/64 "2011-07-26T04:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Just 'cuz you successfully occupy a territory in war and continue to exercise de facto control of it after the war does not imply that you officially own it. [/QUOTE] No? So, you figure the international police will be by to arrest Israel fairly soon now? _taps foot __looks around__ looks at watch__looks at calendar with date_ Um…sometime soon? I have some things to do tonight, so should I wait a bit? (BTW, I don’t see that Israel has really violated any of those precepts in any case, and I don’t see anything in there that would prevent Israel from exercising control of the OT and pretty much doing what they have done…even if there were international police out there to arrest transgressors. Which, you know, there aren’t) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/65 "2011-07-26T04:22:35Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > _Settlements_ (accurately ‘Looting’), not Israel itself, a silly mistake there. > > Israel is for safety. The settlements are a place to kill Israelis. Are you saying that you support the killing of Jewish civilians who live within “settlements”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/66 "2011-07-26T04:25:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No? So, you figure the international police will be by to arrest Israel fairly soon now? Goalpost moving, **xt** old buddy. The question of whether Israel is successfully getting away with something is not the same as the question of whether Israel is officially recognized as legitimately entitled to get away with it. Multi-decade disputes over the rightful sovereignty of occupied territories are not that uncommon (see also: East Timor), and decades of occupation don’t necessarily give the occupier a recognized claim to the territory. As I’m sure you know, we don’t actually have any supreme “international police” force entitled to impose the global majority will on participants in territorial disputes. (And if we did, I’m sure you’d be the first to scream bloody murder about violation of sovereignty.) If there were such an international police force so entitled, though, it would take the occupied territories away from Israel. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/67 "2011-07-26T04:42:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Goalpost moving, xt old buddy. The question of whether Israel is successfully getting away with something is not the same as the question of whether Israel is officially recognized as legitimately entitled to get away with it. [/QUOTE] I’m not moving the goal posts Kim…this was always my point. If you had a different point, or if someone else did, then that’s fine by me. I didn’t set their goals however. My point in all of these threads is that ‘international law’ means exactly what the various countries out there THINKS it means. Since there is no enforcement mechanisms it’s all voluntary. So, we are back to a de facto ‘right of conquest’. It’s even quasi-legal, since Israel didn’t launch a ‘war of aggression’, so territory they captured falls in that whole ‘occupying authority’ gray area that the US and our allies used in Iraq. But, really, it could mean whatever Israel, or the US, or Belgium wants it to mean, in the end, since there aren’t any international police to go forth and arrest transgressors. Unless some country wants to take it upon themselves, in the goodness of their hearts, to Do Something™. Such as when the US invaded Iraq in the furtherance of sacred UN resolutions. Apple Pie™. Little White Houses(aar)…PUPPIES!! Brings a tear to your eye, no? 😛 > [@](#): > > Multi-decade disputes over the rightful sovereignty of occupied territories are not that uncommon (see also: East Timor), and decades of occupation don’t necessarily give the occupier a recognized claim to the territory. They don’t preclude the occupying authority from claiming the territory either, especially if they use a sort of de facto annexation. Since the sovereign nations who lost territory (with the exception of Syria) have given up their claims in this case, and since I don’t see Syria prepared to press it’s claims to regain it’s lost territory, that gives Israel the best claim. Since it seems unlikely (to understate things) that Palestine will ever get it’s shit together OR be a trusted entity in any sort of serious negotiation, that pretty much leaves us with reality as it is. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/68 "2011-07-26T04:56:28Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Shame on you, too. Israelis are building settlements to make the land their own. And they have no **business** making that land their own. Shame on them, and shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/69 "2011-07-26T05:12:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You’re the one who is always claiming to know what’s what with Israel. Ah yes, always with those pesky ‘claims’ backed up by copious ‘cites’. But again, wonderful factual refutation. Obviously, nothing bad could ever happen to European Jews, you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/70 "2011-07-26T05:44:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah yes, always with those pesky ‘claims’ backed up by copious ‘cites’. > But again, wonderful factual refutation. Obviously, nothing bad could ever happen to European Jews, you are correct. In Europe? Not any more. Too much guilt and stuff. Much safer for Jews than anywhere in the MENA. Now put that irrelevance away. Why do Israelis build settlements? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/71 "2011-07-26T06:26:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Europe? Not any more. Mmmm hmmm. Checked any polls recently which show that Europe has a fairly large anti-Semitic contingent who see Jews as alien, clannish and potentially hostile? Perfectly safe. Perfectly. On the other hand, it would take a nuclear war to end Israel’s existence, something that is somewhat less likely. However, yes, I can understand how your error is irrelevant to you. Keep on trucking. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/72 "2011-07-26T12:16:39Z")
Israel’s view of the settlements, according to Danny Ayalon, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. You can view it [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/73 "2011-07-26T12:23:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Mmmm hmmm. Checked any polls recently which show that Europe has a fairly large anti-Semitic contingent who see Jews as alien, clannish and potentially hostile? Perfectly safe. Perfectly. > On the other hand, it would take a nuclear war to end Israel’s existence, something that is somewhat less likely. > > However, yes, I can understand how your error is irrelevant to you. Keep on trucking. Why do the Israelis build settlements? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/74 "2011-07-26T14:11:57Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Israel’s view of the settlements, according to Danny Ayalon, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. You can view it [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo). It’s an interesting view, unfortunately basic history is often required on issues like this. The number of folks who hold forth on the issue but have no idea what “transjordan” was, why the term “'67 borders” is jabberwockian nonsense, when Jordan actually ceded its claims of sovereignty over the West Bank, etc… is absurd. Also unfortunately, any discussion where we have to bring up the facts inevitably gets mired in 200 years of history in the region, minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/75 "2011-07-26T16:14:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you saying that you support the killing of Jewish civilians who live within “settlements”? Yes, **Sevvy** is on record here advocating that settlers be shot on sight since they are looters. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/76 "2011-07-26T16:26:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s an interesting view, unfortunately basic history is often required on issues like this. The number of folks who hold forth on the issue but have no idea what “transjordan” was, why the term “'67 borders” is jabberwockian nonsense, when Jordan actually ceded its claims of sovereignty over the West Bank, etc… is absurd. > > Also unfortunately, any discussion where we have to bring up the facts inevitably gets mired in 200 years of history in the region, minimum. Why do the Israelis build settlements? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/77 "2011-07-26T16:32:53Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Is that the reason why they _started_ establishing settlements? Because at this point, with the amount of Israeli citizens living in the West Bank, evacuating them would be extremely difficult. What I mainly wonder is why the Israeli government first got this idea in the first place. It makes no sense to me, even looking at it from a Zionist perspective. There’s a very important point about the settlements, unlike Israel proper, that people don’t focus on enough, and that’s this: there are no Arabs in the settlements. Not one, as far as I can tell. Israel’s idea in creating settlements was to establish “facts on the ground,” such that when they were finally compelled to talk peace for real, the settlements could be a bargaining chip: the Israelis would propose to keep the (Arab-free) settlements by swapping them for more or less equivalent land from Israel proper. And lo and behold, the lands swapped out of Israel proper would include basically no Jews, but only Arabs. Settlements were conceived, in other words, as a scheme of de-Arabizing Israel. Only the other shoe never dropped – to Israel’s surprise, I’m sure. The world, and particularly America, never actually said to Israel, “We insist you stop this minute with the settlements, or you’ll face some consequences.” Given this reality, why on earth should the Israelis stop with the settlements? There’s nothing to lose, and land to gain. And if the day ever comes when Israel _is_ forced to make peace, they’ll just have a bigger pot to play with. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/78 "2011-07-26T16:48:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yes, **Sevvy** is on record here advocating that settlers be shot on sight since they are looters. Does he feel the same regarding Americans, Canadians and Australians? Also isn’t advocating murder a violation of board rules? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/79 "2011-07-26T16:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] Also isn’t advocating murder a violation of board rules? [/QUOTE] You’d have to ask a Mod, obviously, but I believe the restriction is on advocating death for a specific poster (or some illegal act…Sev doesn’t believe that open season on Israeli settlers would be ‘illegal’. More like getting a hunting license to make sure everyone out there can bag their limit). We actually used to have an Israel settler, but I don’t know if she still posts to the board, so his feelings on killing settlers is a bit theoretical and can probably slip by the rules…on that score at least. > [@](#): > > Does he feel the same regarding Americans, Canadians and Australians? Doubtful. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273/80 "2011-07-26T17:05:28Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > There’s a very important point about the settlements, unlike Israel proper, that people don’t focus on enough, and that’s this: there are no Arabs in the settlements. Not one, as far as I can tell. Israel’s idea in creating settlements was to establish “facts on the ground,” such that when they were finally compelled to talk peace for real, the settlements could be a bargaining chip: the Israelis would propose to keep the (Arab-free) settlements by swapping them for more or less equivalent land from Israel proper. And lo and behold, the lands swapped out of Israel proper would include basically no Jews, but only Arabs. That’s really strange. You’re saying that the Israeli government’s goal in establishing settlements would be to eventually annex them in exchange for territory settled by Israeli Arabs? Or in other words, they’d be willing to revoke the citizenship of some of their citizens by transferring them to some Arab country (perhaps an eventual Palestine)? What do Israeli Arabs think of that plan? And what do Israeli Jews think of that plan? I know that if I were an Israeli Arab, I probably wouldn’t want to give up my citizenship without a fight. And also, would this plan actually have worked? As far as I can tell (and correct me if I’m wrong), the settlements don’t occupy continuous land in the territories. If they’re ever annexed to Israel, they’d take the form of exclaves. And equivalent (Arab-settled) territory now in Israel probably has the same problem. Is there a way to build viable countries in this way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-israelis-build-settlements/590273.md?page=5)